A little introduction

[localmud]

I wanted to take a minute and try to put a lid on the whispers and rumors, whatever they may be.
My name is Matt, and I am the founder of Localmud.com. I want it understood that the views i may share in this post are my views, and my views alone, and not the views of my collective group.

I recieved an anonymous message that this organization, as well as another was "watching me". And by that I don't mean stalking, or spying, but just waiting to try to turn my group "wheels up", because of the lack of affiliation I have with nea4wd, and neow. I've gotten a pleasent email from Steve, just pointing out land use laws, and directing me here. Which in all honesty, I don't see anything wrong with that. It's always a good idea to try to gently steer people in the right direction.

But here's where my problem lies. i notice that nea4wd purports to "represent the interests of the entire 4 wheel drive community in the North East region of the United States". A lot of people didn't ask to be represented by nea4wd, and it seems to me, judging by things I have seen in these forums in the past, that if you aren't on the nea4wd, then you will be strongarmed (i.e. have them "watch you closely" and intercept your events, etc) into being so, or being invisible. I don't like the way this sounds. My group is a group of people that form a community. They are welcome to help support the community, but they are not forced to by having to pay membership dues, etc. It's a sport, a recreation, and a hobby, not a business. Everyone associated with us is very well aware of land use issues, and although we don't police (it's not our job, even for "the sake of improving the image of OHRV'ers") or try and enforce ANYTHING, we do encourage, discourage, and educate.

I realize that what it comes down to, is that you people will say that you're only trying to preserve the pasttime. But we can all do that on our own nickels. We shouldn't have to pay someone to tell us what should be common sense. We don't need hall monitors. So yes, I have issues with the general concept, but overall, I have respect for what is being accomplished here. Start letting members in for free, and start finding other ways to fund that which needs to be funded (I pay for things out of my own pocket) and maybe you'll seem a lot less like the mafia of 4X4'ing, and a little more like a community. We should ALL know that if you see someone doing something dangerous, illegal, or in any other way wrong, that we should speak up.

I hope this clears a few things up. I do appreciate all the hard work and time the members of nea4wd have put into the sport. I know it's not easy keeping an organization like this running smoothly. I just wanted to come over and explain where I am coming from, and the purpose of the group. Anyone is welcome, even if it's just to drop by and say hello.

Thanks for taking the time, and thanks to nea4wd for allowing the post, and look forward to any insight you offer.

-Matt
http://www.localmud.com

[Paul]

All opinions are welcome here.

We have all types of viewpoints and ideas.

It's fine you don't agree with all of them, heck, I don't either.

Steve is a nice guy in person, but he can come across as a "hammerhead" on the internet.

My first thoughts are you are hung up on the money thing.

There's all types here. Give us a chance, and we'll give you a chance.

We're all on the same side. Pro- motorized recreation.

s'all I got fer now.

[Paul]

oh, and.....

Welcome, and thank you for you viewpoints.

[localmud]

lol, thanks for the response Paul. Steve strikes me as being a decent person based on his posts here, as well as being very dedicated to what he's doing.

[Paul]

Trust me, he's pissed all of us 10 times more than he's pissed you off.

But he's our Treasurer, he's the best at what he does, and he's gotten us more land to wheel than any other person, so we still love him dearly beside all his faults.

[Paul]

People here work really really hard here at what they do. It is a passion, and many of us treat it as a business. Many get uptight when they see people doing the wrong thing and wrecking what they are trying to do. It takes patience on both sides. Frustration on both sides will accomplish nothing.

I think the Assoc realizes that strongarming, tattle-taling, and calling the EPO's on people is not going to win any friends. But you always have to keep that option in mind for drunken idiots who like to knock down gates and wreck farmers crops, etc.

[rblank]

Welcome Matt, and thank you for sharing your point of view with us. Obviously I don't know everything that transpired, but I'm going to offer you an apology. No one regardless of their affiliation (or lack of) should have been treated like that. I thought we were trying to bring people in this sport together, not drive them apart.

This situation concerns me and shame on the person that thinks they need to be a "watchdog." I would hope that the NEA as an organization will form some kind of investigation.

[localmud]

I think we just need to get an understanding. I spent a LONG time perusing the forums here- as you can see, I've been regged for quite a while. I just want to make sure that people aren't outcasts because of a lack of membership with anyone organization.
I truley support the work here, and I personally think Steve appears to be doing a great job. We just all need to understand, we're in it for the same reason.

[Paul]

I owe Roger a kick in the nuts. You want I'll kick Steve in the nuts for you too??

This organization started out as a group of active friends that wanted to get together in order to approach the state for legal places to wheel. Over time the real serious people stick with it and still take it real seriously, and the people that just want to have fun and wheel tend to fall by the way-side. It's difficult to find a way to be a professional by-the-book organization and have fun doing it too. It will always be a struggle, but we manage.

When you find someone here who is mad and trying to "police" someone, what they are really trying to say is "I've spent years of time developing relationships and getting legal places to wheel, and I'll be damned if I let someone screw it up on me". It takes a cool head, empathy, understanding of that person is trying to accomplish. If you think their going about it the wrong way, tell them.

[localmud]

This is good- I'm getting a much better understanding of the organization than my original impression. I'm glad I came here.

[Scott Hatch]

Strong arming people for membership and sicking the authorities on people?

I am not sure who you may have spoken with but I don't think it was myself or any other officer of this organization (I really hope not). Seriously, I would like to know who it was and especially if it was an officer.

I am in contact with many clubs, some are members and others aren't (for whatever reason). Join or not, I respect the decisions of clubs that don't join for what ever reason it may be. We are directly representing the interests of our member clubs first and foremost and secondly all 4x4 users and this entails the good AND the bad of all 4x4 users. This organization will still be working with the State of NH Trails Bureau to open access to public lands for ALL 4x4 users, whether a member or not.

As far as enforcement, there are times this organization will seek police action would be if it directly affected our vested interests. An example of this would be illegal access and damage to property this organization secured permission to and spent funds maintaining trails.

You and others may not have asked us to represent you but unfortunately as a regional organization meeting with many different states officials we are the representatives of the 4x4 community. This is also a double edged sword, any all transgressions are held against the NEA whether we were involved or not. I have always sought opinions and views from 4x4 users regardless of membership. I often post information on public forums and non affiliated club forums specifically looking for input and ideas. Our meetings have always been open to the public and I've always allowed attendees to speak at our meetings.

I am glad you've posted here and appreciate bringing these issues to light. I hope you can take the words of myself and others direclty working with the NEA as its officers, members, and directors. If you would like to talk about this some time feel free to call my cell or home (after 7pm) or email me.

Respectfully,
Scott Hatch
President NEA4WDC
shatch@nea4wd.org
(home) 603-464-5869
(cell) 508-468-1658

[Paul]

It's easy to see how clubs/associations get the hoity-toity, stuck up, goodie goodie, tattle-tale image. But 9 times out of 10 that is not the case, people just join clubs becuase they want a place to wheel and that's it. I think the first post here is just another example of a common mis-perception.

There's always stinky politics, grudges, and misunderstandings whenever you get more than two people together to accomplish any task. If you can deal with it, stick around and get things done. If you can't deal with it, still stick around...but just have fun wheelin!

That's my .02.
I'll shaddap before I dig my hole any deeper.

[Treasurer]

You can kick me if you want. When people stay outside the loop and wheel without permission, because they can get away with it, that is just like a kick to me. Some of us have worked hard at getting permission to use land and keep that permission. Nobody has to join the NEA4WDC. What everybody needs to do is obey the law. It is very simple. Get written persmission from landowners and go have fun.

[JayZR2]

Your first post is a far cry from what has been said on your forum about us.

So basically speaking, these people stumbled across another group of people such as ourselves, and want to play "police" and try to get them in trouble. So, my advice is to keep things low key and under wraps. If you happen to run into any of these idiots on the trails, make sure you take a second and tell them what a bunch of fucking idiots they are, and thank them for trying to squash your sport so they can try and make money by governing what we love to do.

None of us "make money" off of this. In fact I know I myself have paid hundreds of dollars out of my own pocket as have most of the other people here. I have no problem with unaffiliated wheelers who wheel within the law and practice Treadlightly! I do take offense to people who say I'm going to do what I want, when I want, where I want. If your in the 1st group then good for you! I look forward to working on your behalf towards keeping trails open and hope to meet up with you enjoying our sport on the trails.

[Paul]

Your first post is a far cry from what has been said on your forum about us.

So basically speaking, these people stumbled across another group of people such as ourselves, and want to play "police" and try to get them in trouble. So, my advice is to keep things low key and under wraps. If you happen to run into any of these idiots on the trails, make sure you take a second and tell them what a bunch of fucking idiots they are, and thank them for trying to squash your sport so they can try and make money by governing what we love to do.

Yea but, Underground had the same thing to say until they realized how nice we were, see how good that turned out.

Wait a sec....strike that.

[localmud]

Your first post is a far cry from what has been said on your forum about us.
None of us "make money" off of this. In fact I know I myself have paid hundreds of dollars out of my own pocket as have most of the other people here. I have no problem with unaffiliated wheelers who wheel within the law and practice Treadlightly! I do take offense to people who say I'm going to do what I want, when I want, where I want. If your in the 1st group then good for you! I look forward to working on your behalf towards keeping trails open and hope to meet up with you enjoying our sport on the trails.

Very true Jay. You pulled a quote that was 1 year and a half old, and was in an announcement. Somehow I missed that when I calmed down a bit and decided that anger wasn't the best course in dealing with the issue. I apologize, somehow that post was overlooked, but I appreciate you pointing it out.
Since we aren't an official club (who exactly is to determine what is official and what isn't anyways?) and instead are more of a community made up of smaller groups of people that wheel together, we have no real statement to make. All we have is the example of our folks who are responsible, and have been doing this for years.
As we move along, lot's of new people are entering the scene, and it's up to us to not necassarily police them, but instead to guide them by example.
From time to time we cross groups, or I myself go out to photograph groups playing. (I'm also a bit of a photographer) When this happens, that's our chance to show how we do it, instead of trying to mandate a certain behavior, and scare kids into being covert when they wheel. When they see us, older and wiser with the necassary elements to Tread lightly, and realize that it takes very little effort to care for the land we use. As the founder, and my small staff, we refuse to cover any illegal activities. This includes trespassing, as well as just plain being careless and disrespectful or discourteous.
Most of the pictures I have on the site are actually on MY land in fact, as i have a nice stretch with a good mudhole, and am in the process of trying to acquire over 100 acres adjoining it.
So, long story short, (ok, so I failed at that part!)
Steve, respectfully submitted, your delivery is horrible. I get your point, but the way you put it, you make it seem like everyone that is not with your organization is breaking the law. I see that, coupled with posts of you wanting to stake areas out with a gun, and that makes me have an unfavorable impression of the group. Luckily, Paul, Scott and Jay have given me a great bit of insight on the real purpose here.

[Derek]

Steve, respectfully submitted, your delivery is horrible. I get your point, but the way you put it, you make it seem like everyone that is not with your organization is breaking the law. I see that, coupled with posts of you wanting to stake areas out with a gun, and that makes me have an unfavorable impression of the group. Luckily, Paul, Scott and Jay have given me a great bit of insight on the real purpose here.

i will agree that his delivery on that could be miss construed, but if you read what he wrote, The NEA just dislikes those that wheel illegally. There are ALOT of clubs, unofficial and official that are not part of the NEA. This we do not have a problem with. The people we have a problem with are those that are wheeling illegally. Because that regardless of what group they belong to it has an affect on ALL OF US in this wheeling community.

[rvgjeep1]

Welcome Matt
When I ever read your words asking your group to take the time to confront us and call us F'ing idiots, I was pissed. E-mail and internet communications in general are often taken out of context, but you were very clear. It is critical that you understand that the NEA4WDC is made up of individual clubs with individual thoughts. It is merely a coincidence that we can all meet on the Association level. I often call BS when I do not like a decision that the NEA4WDC makes, and my opinion is always respected. Moving foward, do your best not to stereotype any of us and we will return the favor. Otherwise, wheel hard and have fun! Hope to see you on the trail someday.

Sincerely

Roy Van Gemert
President'
Deep Woods Extreme

[Treasurer]

I would rather meet people in person. The phone is not even that good. I meet all lanowners in person. Even if you have no intentions of forming a club and joining us, you attend a meeting and see what we are about. I never meant to imply all unaffilliated wheelers are illegal. The problem is the majority of them are illegal. I can say this, becuase most of them that I have run into did not have permission. These wheelers were educated when I participated in a safety patrols.

I am not saying that you drink alcohol and drive, but I have been known to call the police on drunk drivers. Yes I followed them and made sure they got caught. Look at it this way if you are obeying the law then you should not care who sees you.

[localmud]

It's actually kind of funny when I think about it, I'm representing those who aren't represneted, you know what I mean?

Roy, nice to see you posting on the subject. I've always had a lot of respect for DWE, and it's good to get a lot of input from people who are involved in other organizations.

Steve, you and I aren't so different. If I see someone blatantly endagering themselves or someone else, I intervene. Hell I once got out of my truck at a red light, reached into a guys car and pulled the keys from the ignition because he had about three toddlers in the car jumping arounf from front seat to back seat, unrestrained. Police came, i handed the keys over to the cop.

Living on a class 6 road, there's a lot of opportunity for me to speak up when i see someone come barreling through, being an ass. For about a year, I've threatened to gate the road, and intercepted many vehicles coming up through, and I see the same people a second time, but acting more responsibly. On either end of the road there are neighborhoods, and these people need to remember how to drive in a nieghborhood when they regain the pavement.

I'm still interested in hearing what any straggler has to offer on te subject. I will respectfully rescind any statements I have made in the past, and will definitely encourage people to head over this way and participate in discussions that involve them, and the things they love to do.

[tammylynn]

I'm just curious-when you talk about your group being responsible, where does your group wheel? Do you wheel on areas you have written permission for or strictly on Class VI roads?

I have been a part of the Association since it began and really can't add anything more than what has already been stated. Over the years I have seen so much progress and it is because we have worked together to achieve the "common goal". Unfortunately to achieve the success we have it takes money to do so and I can assure you nobody within the NEA has seen any of that money go into their own pockets. We all do this on our spare time as volunteers.

I also have been a member and Executive Officer of DWE for a long time. I know our club has great respect for the NEA for all they have done because without them-we would only have one legal place to wheel and we wouldn't stand a chance without strength in numbers to approach the state governments for public land.

[mrfreakinwhite]

Who makes a club official or unofficial was asked. The club I'm in is incorporated, etc., blah-blah - so it's officialness is by the laws that dictate such things.

We pay for land to wheel on, have permission from our members for their private properties and have used money from our treasuries to help a struggling club.

All the blah-blah about my nickel and your nickel, well, other people mentioned not a dime goes in their pockets, which is true 'where' I'm from, too. What should be added but hasn't is that membership DOES have privileges. To me, some of them are priceless.

[tammylynn]

Our club is incorporated as well and the reason we are is not so much to say we are "official" or better than anyone-it is to protect our members and Executive Officers in case anything should ever happen resulting in someone coming after our assets.

Put it this way- we were told years ago at a meeting with Fish & Game in Domenic Pono's shop that if we did not get organized as a group-we would witness the end of our sport very quickly. Wah-lah-the Association was born. All the clubs at that time joined together to work towards getting our sport organized and on the map. We are still doing it today. The fact that we now have over 20 clubs and are still receiving interest proves we are doing something right and that there is a huge population of wheelers that want to do the right thing. Maybe it isn't for everyone-I'll admit it would be much easier for all of us to just go out on a whim whenever we please but just like anything else-there comes a time when you have to sit down and evaluate your role in the big picture.

[Mikey]

I hope you realize the NEA isn't 1 of a kind.
right off the top of my head there is the
East Coast 4wheel Drive Association www.ec4wda.org
Utah 4wheel Drive Association www.u4wda.org
United Four Wheel Drive Association www.ufwda.org

and that's just the beginning.
http://www.google.com/search?q=4wheel+drive+association

[mrfreakinwhite]

Tammylynn said it well, better than me. She's good at that.

You'll find that most clubs are not-for-profit, Localmud.

It would be easier to be able to just go out on a whim, but in truth, when it goes on we lose access to public areas usually.

[localmud]

Lot's more good replies here. I really appreciate you guys taking the time to express what's on your mind on the subject.
Only a couple things to clarify, as I mentioned them, but a few may have skimmed too fast and missed them.
We're not a "club" like a lot of you are. I really don't intend on becoming one either, not because I don't like clubs, but more because it's not why I started this. There are a lot of people out there who go out every weekend, and like to go when they want, and be as disorganized as they want. So a club really doesn't make much sense to them.
Take my situation for example. I usually only know on short notice that I'll have time to go out. So I send text messages to my friends, and whoever shows up at my house, shows up at my house. There is enough to do without leaving my property, that we can spend the day without leaving my place. I have trails, I have hills to climb, I have a mud hole. We get bored, I have two friends I wheel with within 10 miles that also have a place to wheel on their property. I haven't wheeled anywhere but those three places is two years.
So Localmud is pretty much made up of a lot of little groups like mine. The majority that I have run across are on property with permission (So far as I've heard) and now they can benefit from having a place to show off pictures, talk with others about wheeling, technical stuff, etc.
I'm not sure if I'm explaining it in a way that it makes sense to anyone.

As I've said also, I've actually been a member on these forums since 2005 I believe. I've seen a lot, and I wuld never discourage any of my people to join a club. I really do appreciate what the clubs are all doing, and how hard they work for the sport. Everyone benefits, and it's pretty selfless to do the kind of work that you all do for the community as a whole.

[mrfreakinwhite]

So... Do you live in Mass or..?

How much land?

Have you or your friends ever considered opening up the use of your land that you wheel for a club? Some clubs could offer some assistance, as could the NEA if there might be anything that's needed on the land.

[/computerballs off]

I post on more than one non-club forum. I tried to encourage one to become a club, but have since tried to chill out, but still ocassionally have to defend why clubs are out there, as opposed to just 'doing the right thing.' (Which is because our group, off roaders, is so prejudiced against we need to be somewhat united to make a difference.)

I'll check out your site, thanks.

[JayZR2]

Matt,
You are one of the lucky ones who has your own land to play on. For me, since I don't own any land I have to rely on what available to me both public and private. Being part of the NEA has more then doubled the legal areas I can go play. If that means I need to pick a date a month in advance and work my other stuff around that I do.
The NEA and clubs in general aren't out to keep from wheeling, we are doing just the opposite. We are trying to keep what few places we have left open and working towards getting more.

I am glad you took the time to hear us out and "come right to the source" rather than listen to things second hand and hear from people who aren't affiliated with us what we are about.

Like Steve said club, individual,assoc doesn't matter so long as we all recreate with in the law.

[localmud]

I'm in NH, and I'm actually waiting to see if i can make the aquisition of the other land adjoining mine. If i can, I will be opening it up for use definitely.

[tammylynn]

Well at least you're staying legal and encouraging others to do so as well. I can understand people not wanting to be in a club or association-but if they're still going to wheel at least do it responsibly and keep it legal.

[localmud]

Well at least you're staying legal and encouraging others to do so as well. I can understand people not wanting to be in a club or association-but if they're still going to wheel at least do it responsibly and keep it legal.

Agreed. I've been doing this for over 20 years, and back in the old days, every truck that rolled in had something for the event. Lot's had trashcans, so we would make sure whatever went in came back out, picnic tables, all sorts of things. I'd like to see it be/stay that way.

[jenmarrs]

it sounds like you are doing things right and having fun

Glad to make your aquaintence! club or no club we are all out for the same thing: safe, legal, fun times in the woods with our rigs

Where in NH are you? I am in Cornish NH

welcome to the forum...feel free to participate even if you don't care to join

-jen

[localmud]

Thanks Jen. I'm in Dunbarton. Out in the sticks, but different sticks than you:)