nea4wd.org

Users are getting pretty pissed off at Mikey over his antics at ExploringNH. This kind of person representing your club does not look good to us locust wheelers and renegades.

Mikey has had several user names, has been bothering users through PMs, and continually starting trouble after being banned several times.

This could be one of the reasons that the NEA has the image it does. I know ExploringNH at this point is probably a lost cause on trying to convert to an NEA member club, but maybe it would be a good place to learn from.

Ryan,
The NEA is not a club. It is an association of clubs. We (The NEA's BOD ) have no control over what Mikey does on a site we are not moderators of.
Mikey holds no official position with NEA either. He is not a delegate, alternate officer etc. Just a dues paying member of a couple NEA clubs.

As you asked us not to judge all of ENH by the handful of guys that trespassed on our property and brag about the illegal wheeling they do at the Mason/Brookline power lines also known as The Steps, or Sheet Metal, don't judge all of the NEA by Mikey's actions.
BTW were those guys permanently banned for that?

Mikey is ussually pretty harmless, but does have a reputation for stiring the pot. And he is an individual and not a representitive or leader of the NEA4WDC. As ENH has pointed out several times, it is unfair to take the actions of a small group or individuals and consider them representitive of our whole. Mikey is a member of my club as well as a few others. So here is all I can do.

Mikey, please back off of this group, they are just a bunch of guys like us with opinions of thier own, and a friendly relationship is important to DWE. I am sure if they knew you they may find some fun in your ribbing, but let's play nice until that day comes.

And that's all I got to say about that.

just a note exploring NH from what i have seen condones rrenagade wheeling, mikey for the most part has been denoucing that kind of behavour there .. if thats what you mean by causing trouble this my not be where you want to bring your problems

JayZR2 wrote:Ryan,
The NEA is not a club. It is an association of clubs. We (The NEA's BOD ) have no control over what Mikey does on a site we are not moderators of.
Mikey holds no official position with NEA either. He is not a delegate, alternate officer etc. Just a dues paying member of a couple NEA clubs.

As you asked us not to judge all of ENH by the handful of guys that trespassed on our property and brag about the illegal wheeling they do at the Mason/Brookline power lines also known as The Steps, or Sheet Metal, don't judge all of the NEA by Mikey's actions.
BTW were those guys permanently banned for that?

But these are the people that are representing NEA, as a delegate, or normal member. The people pushing the NEA and its values are the ones causing the most trouble. These are the people that everyone sees and remembers.

There are people that are good as well, but stay mostly behind the lines. Foxtrot is an individual that is on our wite that I know has a very high opinion of the NEA. He participates in normal conversation and doesnt belittle members or stir the pot. He posts helpful comments when necessary and is very respectful and friendly as well as being a partof the group and joining on a few runs. Its these people that the NEA needs more of, out on the front lines.

The members that were accused of illegal wheeling were temporary banned. I banned them on Scott's word, even though no proof has been presented, several weeks later. I trust that they were on illegal property because Scott said they were, but in reality, I should have more than that. I think this is discussion for another thread though.

supazuk wrote:just a note exploring NH from what i have seen condones rrenagade wheeling, mikey for the most part has been denoucing that kind of behavour there .. if thats what you mean by causing trouble this my not be where you want to bring your problems

Thats not what I mean. I am talking about the PMing of members, several duplicate IDs, trolling, and general bad behaviour on the site.

ENH does not condone illegal wheeling, and I encourage you to find one instance of it on the site. Again, this discussion might be best suited for another thread.

So to that end Ryan, the people I remember from ENH are the ones that trespassed at Carnage. What do you want for proof? We have the photos do you want me to take you out to the property and show you where they were?
It's not far I will gladly do that.

I know their are good members of ENH, probably a lot more good then the few bad. Mikey does not speak for the NEA, he speaks for Mikey. Do you want me to post that as a disclaimer over there?

I can ask Mikey as a courtesy to be on his best behavior, (much like Roy did) but like I said before I can't control what he does on a forum that has severed ties with the NEA.

exploringnh wrote:

supazuk wrote:just a note exploring NH from what i have seen condones rrenagade wheeling, mikey for the most part has been denoucing that kind of behavour there .. if thats what you mean by causing trouble this my not be where you want to bring your problems

Thats not what I mean. I am talking about the PMing of members, several duplicate IDs, trolling, and general bad behaviour on the site.

ENH does not condone illegal wheeling, and I encourage you to find one instance of it on the site. Again, this discussion might be best suited for another thread.

IMO, there's some value to what you are saying, more people like Foxtrot are needed. But seriously, dude - look at your own sig line on this forum. It is antagonistic at best and is not going to get you the results you want in this thread.

This whole thing is very disappointing to me, because I could see how excited Scott was when he began working with your forum users on the map 6 program.

All ryan was asking for is a simple PM to mikey, we understand you can't control what mikey does off the NEA forum, just like we can't control what a few members on our forum do in their own time.
I cannot believe you are still holding what a few members did against the whole forum. We are just a forum with no power except banning a member when they do something wrong. You guys are the great and powerful NEA, with all the proof you have of the illegal wheeling, you should be able to use all of your resources to punish these few people and move on.
But from what I'm hearing is you guys found out that you can't do anything, so your taking your frustration out towards us.
Would a permanent ban of these guys on our forum really fix everything?
Will banning them from our site stop them from doing illegal wheeling, I don't think so. We told them we do not tolerate it at all and for them to be a member on our forum they have to follow the rules.
I do not support illegal wheeling, but I also don't believe in telling a person who does it get the hell away from us or else. This does not solve the problem, working with them, showing them the legal spots and educating them, I believe in the long run is the best thing we can do for the sport.
I'm a strong believer in second chances and yes I do get burnt from that occasionally, but I've also seen on multiply occasions people that most of you would have just given up on because it's easier, turn out to become an asset to the off road community.

I'm not posting over here to cause problems, I believe very strongly in my beliefs and what ExploringNH as well as the NEA is doing, it just looks like we have different approaches. I like being a part of the NEA and the members I've met in person were great, I wont let a few negative members on a forum ruin that for me, can you.

mrfreakinwhite wrote:

exploringnh wrote:

supazuk wrote:just a note exploring NH from what i have seen condones rrenagade wheeling, mikey for the most part has been denoucing that kind of behavour there .. if thats what you mean by causing trouble this my not be where you want to bring your problems

Thats not what I mean. I am talking about the PMing of members, several duplicate IDs, trolling, and general bad behaviour on the site.

ENH does not condone illegal wheeling, and I encourage you to find one instance of it on the site. Again, this discussion might be best suited for another thread.

IMO, there's some value to what you are saying, more people like Foxtrot are needed. But seriously, dude - look at your own sig line on this forum. It is antagonistic at best and is not going to get you the results you want in this thread.

This whole thing is very disappointing to me, because I could see how excited Scott was when he began working with your forum users on the map 6 program.

His signature is what a bunch of your members have been calling us.
I don't think you guys realize that most of us over on ENH are NEA members and have access to this forum. It was upsetting for us to be trashed talk to like that.
I was just as excited as Scott was when we teamed up to do the map 6, but it just didn't work out. I personally have not giving up on working together later down the road, we just need some time alone to get further along with it before we try a partnership again.

mrfreakinwhite wrote:IMO, there's some value to what you are saying, more people like Foxtrot are needed. But seriously, dude - look at your own sig line on this forum. It is antagonistic at best and is not going to get you the results you want in this thread.

This whole thing is very disappointing to me, because I could see how excited Scott was when he began working with your forum users on the map 6 program.

I feel bad for Scott. I think he has suffered most over the whole deal, on both sides of the fence. I wish things could have worked out, but with peoples pre-established opinions of the NEA, and then further confirmation of those feelings throughout the life of the site, I dont think that will happen, but you never know.

ExploringNH was given the title of "locust group" by NEA members/delegates/officers on this forum far before I even started posting here. It just goes to show the attitude towards new clubs that are not jumping at the chance to become an NEA member club. ExploringNH actually had it in our two year plan to join NEA.

As far as what I am trying to accomplish - what do you think that is?

The NEA has a pretty big discussion going on right now on how to improve their image to the public and to non-NEA groups. Well, here it is...Get people like Mikey to stop harrassing clubs, and get more people like Foxtrot in clubs. Thats what this post was about. A side goal was the hopes that Mikey would stop registering on the site and harrassing members.

Jay - I know Scott has been working on trying to get photos of the area. He has provided me with trail maps and a tax map of the area. Both very useful, but only go on Scott's word that the users were actually in the area he says they were. Now, I believe that they were, and I trust Scott fully, but I need proof. You can show me the area all day, but that wont help me prove that they were there. It also needs to be cleared up that the land they were on was clearly marked no trespassing or private property or anything determining that it wasnt a public area. Photos of those signs would really help, but not entirely necessary. When I get called out on it, I want to make sure i have all the material, and not just parrot back what people have told me.

As far as what I am trying to accomplish - what do you think that is?

It seems like you are suggesting Mikey is a problem (er, it sounds like, too) but on the other hand Foxtrot sets a great example of how to win people over.

I think your own posts are pretty well constructed, but your sig line kind of undoes the good in your posts.

Just a suggestion. If you want to help the situation and want cooperation from the NEA to help reign in the inappropriate behavior, you might be better served to get rid of the antagonistic sig line. Be like Foxtrot.

I'm really interested in liberal hippiesm, spread the love and the peace and be a good example and teach 'renegades' better trail use etiquette, too. One of my very best friends is one of my very least favorite renegades, but I just keep showing him the right way to the best of my ability.

Hehehe, sorry for the long post, I'll summarize:
I might go visit your forum and try to say the right thing to help your cause, but your sig line makes me think, "Why bother?"

I'm only trying to help you, not trying to be a d***.
thanks for reading.

Just to clarify....

In NH there is no such thing as a public 4x4 trail, yet....the closest thing is a Class VI road. Any motorized user must have written landowner permission if not part of a state recognized OHRV club, and the only 4x4 organization recoginzed by New Hampshire is the NEA and its member clubs.

Ryan if you have the time I will gladly take you out on a tour and show you the property and trails. I can assure you that a tour of the property will satisfy your need for proof.

As far as Mikey, no one deserves being attacked. I'll ask him to stop for you.

At this time there is no such thing as "public trails" for 4x4s in NH.

POSTED LAND (RSA 215-A:34)
Landowners are NOT REQUIRED to post their property against OHRV use. The absence of signs prohibiting OHRV's does not imply that OHRV's are welcome or allowed.

LANDOWNER PERMISSION (RSA 215-A:29)
Written landowner permission is required to operate an OHRV on private property. OHRV Clubs and the Bureau of Trails may obtain verbal permission from landowners for public OHRV Trails. OHRV operates must stop and present identification to a landowner when requested to do so.

mrfreakinwhite wrote:It seems like you are suggesting Mikey is a problem (er, it sounds like, too) but on the other hand Foxtrot sets a great example of how to win people over.

I think your own posts are pretty well constructed, but your sig line kind of undoes the good in your posts.

Just a suggestion. If you want to help the situation and want cooperation from the NEA to help reign in the inappropriate behavior, you might be better served to get rid of the antagonistic sig line. Be like Foxtrot.

I'm really interested in liberal hippiesm, spread the love and the peace and be a good example and teach 'renegades' better trail use etiquette, too. One of my very best friends is one of my very least favorite renegades, but I just keep showing him the right way to the best of my ability.

Hehehe, sorry for the long post, I'll summarize:
I might go visit your forum and try to say the right thing to help your cause, but your sig line makes me think, "Why bother?"

I'm only trying to help you, not trying to be a d***.
thanks for reading.

Sig line removed, although I dont expect anyone to visit the site and spread the word of the NEA and I would actually advise against doing that. I think Jay would agree with me here .

Anyone from the NEA is welcome on the site, as is shown by our user base. All but one of the moderators is an NEA member, as well as several users. Its the few that come on and push the NEA into everyones face, and do it in a demeaning manner that are a problem and portray the NEA in a bad light.

Im not asking for help on anything right now. Hopefully Mikey sees this post and realizes that he is doing more harm than good (although Im pretty sure he was already aware of that) and just calls it quits. If that doesnt happen, then no problem, Ill continue with the bans and this can serve as a lesson for me on how to stop problematic users from re-registering.

Scott Hatch wrote:Ryan if you have the time I will gladly take you out on a tour and show you the property and trails. I can assure you that a tour of the property will satisfy your need for proof.

After thinking about and having both you and Jay say that a tour of the property would help, it is probably a good idea. I dont know the area, as is apparent, and I think that seeing it in person will help get things straightened out. I have both of your phone numbers and Ill try to work out a time to come visit. I live in southern NH, so its a bit of a drive.

exploringnh wrote:Sig line removed, although I dont expect anyone to visit the site and spread the word of the NEA and I would actually advise against doing that. I think Jay would agree with me here .

He does.

exploringnh wrote:

Scott Hatch wrote:Ryan if you have the time I will gladly take you out on a tour and show you the property and trails. I can assure you that a tour of the property will satisfy your need for proof.

After thinking about and having both you and Jay say that a tour of the property would help, it is probably a good idea. I dont know the area, as is apparent, and I think that seeing it in person will help get things straightened out. I have both of your phone numbers and Ill try to work out a time to come visit. I live in southern NH, so its a bit of a drive.

I want to be there for this. The property is in Southern NH so probably not as far as you think.

There is like 3 "southern" New Hampshire's.
Seacoast,93 and RT 3 area and Keene...

mikesmaxx wrote:There is like 3 "southern" New Hampshire's.
Seacoast,93 and RT 3 area and Keene...

Well then...Im from Seacoast, Southern NH.

I thought the property was 1hr+ from me.

The property is extreme south western NH

Thanks for seeing my point of view and responding as you did.

I don't know Mikey at all - not like I know you guys, either - but it seems like Scott will ask him to stop and I think we all agree that Scott is prompt and does what he says he'll do. Hopefully, it stops.

You want me removed from your site - please remove every post and PM I'm made there.


Lately I just make accounts to get the "Recent posts" button, and I've only sent 2 PMs recently asking someone about their truck.

Actually - this isn't the way to fix this, as now I'm rather upset of the situation.

You should have asked on NEOW about this as they have about the same relation to me as the NEA does, actually NEOW has gotten more of my money from donations than the NEA does from the clubs I'm a member of.

Mikey wrote:Actually - this isn't the way to fix this, as now I'm rather upset of the situation.

You should have asked on NEOW about this as they have about the same relation to me as the NEA does, actually NEOW has gotten more of my money from donations than the NEA does from the clubs I'm a member of.

You had several chances to stop, but you never did.

I dont know you or your relationship to NEOW. I know that you are a member of a few clubs, and I know that you are active in the NEA. This seemed like a logical place.

exploringnh wrote:Jay - I know Scott has been working on trying to get photos of the area. He has provided me with trail maps and a tax map of the area. Both very useful, but only go on Scott's word that the users were actually in the area he says they were. Now, I believe that they were, and I trust Scott fully, but I need proof. You can show me the area all day, but that wont help me prove that they were there. It also needs to be cleared up that the land they were on was clearly marked no trespassing or private property or anything determining that it wasnt a public area. Photos of those signs would really help, but not entirely necessary. When I get called out on it, I want to make sure i have all the material, and not just parrot back what people have told me.

frankly, you might want to read up on the RSA's governing access in the state of nh. otherwise, from your statement, a neutral observer would be lead to believe that you (and, by implication, your club) are ignorant about a nh landowner's responsibility to post his/her land. to that end, it isn't necessary for nh landowner's to post their property against motorized - wheeled vehicles. the law prohibits it unless you have written permission from said landowner. so, the absence of a sign does not give you, or your club, carte-blanche to explore nh.

do it right. and if you don't do it right, don't complain when someone (mikey) takes you to task over your illegal behavior (or the illegal behavior of yahoos that are members of your organization). i'd do the same, especially since you wanted information about the MapSix project. Scott spearheads that project AND he's a member of NEWJO - a club that i'm a member of, too. he has done a tremendous amount of work for the benefit of four-wheeling in new england, a benefit that extends to non-nea clubs and non-club members equally.

the nea doesn't have to prove itself to you - especially on THIS site. rather, you and your club have to prove yourselves to the NEA.

wally

wally wrote:
frankly, you might want to read up on the RSA's governing access in the state of nh. otherwise, from your statement, a neutral observer would be lead to believe that you (and, by implication, your club) are ignorant about a nh landowner's responsibility to post his/her land. to that end, it isn't necessary for nh landowner's to post their property against motorized - wheeled vehicles. the law prohibits it unless you have written permission from said landowner. so, the absence of a sign does not give you, or your club, carte-blanche to explore nh.

do it right. and if you don't do it right, don't complain when someone (mikey) takes you to task over your illegal behavior (or the illegal behavior of yahoos that are members of your organization). i'd do the same, especially since you wanted information about the MapSix project. Scott spearheads that project AND he's a member of NEWJO - a club that i'm a member of, too. he has done a tremendous amount of work for the benefit of four-wheeling in new england, a benefit that extends to non-nea clubs and non-club members equally.

the nea doesn't have to prove itself to you - especially on THIS site. rather, you and your club have to prove yourselves to the NEA.

wally

You seem to be mistaken on so many points, let me try and clear a few things up so you can better restructure your arguments.

1. "to that end, it isn't necessary for nh landowner's to post their property against motorized - wheeled vehicles."
I was under the impression that the land they were on was reverted or closed class 6 roads when I wrote that. In which case, it is up to the landowner to properly and clearly mark the road. Like I said before, I am not familiar with the property they were on, and that will be cleared up once I take a ride with Scott/Jay.

2. "don't complain when someone (mikey) takes you to task over your illegal behavior"
Mikey wasnt calling us out on illegal wheeling. He was registering several user names and continuing to visit the site after being banned for trolling for fights. Since the first ban, new usernames were started, posts have been made, and PMs were sent to a couple members. Instigating more fights and harrassing members is not acceptable.
This isnt about the one instance that we all know about with the two users that happen to post on ENH that were on NEA property. Even so, like I said before, go find illegal wheeling on the site, please.

3."or the illegal behavior of yahoos that are members of your organization). "
What organization? We are not a club. Its an open forum for anyone to post and conversate in. There are no dues or membership required events. Its a central meeting place for all things offroad in NH. We do not condone illegal activities and anything that does happen to get posted is removed as soon as it is confirmed (or most of the time even suspected) to be illegal. The moderating staff cant possibly know every road and piece of private property in the state, so if people post wheeling on land we dont know about, then it is up to users to report that and the thread will be removed and the posters disciplined. If it is determined that someone is on NEA land, by all means PROSECUTE!. If you cant do that, dont whine to me about it. I do what i need to for my site to run properly. Prosecuting people for being on your land is not in my job description.

4. "especially since you wanted information about the MapSix project. "
This one is a big one. WE DID NOT ASK TO GET INFORMATION ABOUT MAPSIX!!! I wanted to make that clear. We had a mapping program in place when the NEA approached us. We decided to try and work together on the project. This was later disbanded and we are both left with our respective programs to map the state.

4. I dont understand how Scott's credentials come into play here? I know who he is and what he has done, but thanks for clearing that up. It doesnt really sound like you know whats going on here, but thanks for the input.

5. "you and your club have to prove yourselves to the NEA."
HAHAHA. We will NEVER be a part of the NEA, and as such, have no desire to prove ourselves to you.

exploringnh wrote:1. "to that end, it isn't necessary for nh landowner's to post their property against motorized - wheeled vehicles."
I was under the impression that the land they were on was reverted or closed class 6 roads when I wrote that. In which case, it is up to the landowner to properly and clearly mark the road. Like I said before, I am not familiar with the property they were on, and that will be cleared up once I take a ride with Scott/Jay.

you are mistaken. no landowner in nh has any responsibility to delineate property lines with respect to town roads. if the road is abandoned, meaning it is no longer a public (town) road, the public no longer has a right to travel it. and in such cases, the landowners are NOT required to post/sign it stating such.

if the road was a closed class vi (your words) then the yahoos that posted photos/video on the enh site were violating that particular regulation, too. (a seasonal closure of town roads for mud season).

really, though. it's obvious that you aren't interested in the correct course of action. perhaps you'll notice that the only venue in which i've discussed this is HERE, on the nea site. the only person whining is you, on the NEA site. and on this site, you do have to prove yourself to the NEA. i doubt you understand the distinction, though. prove me wrong.

wally wrote:you are mistaken. no landowner in nh has any responsibility to delineate property lines with respect to town roads. if the road is abandoned, meaning it is no longer a public (town) road, the public no longer has a right to travel it. and in such cases, the landowners are NOT required to post/sign it stating such.

if the road was a closed class vi (your words) then the yahoos that posted photos/video on the enh site were violating that particular regulation, too. (a seasonal closure of town roads for mud season).

really, though. it's obvious that you aren't interested in the correct course of action. perhaps you'll notice that the only venue in which i've discussed this is HERE, on the nea site. the only person whining is you, on the NEA site. and on this site, you do have to prove yourself to the NEA. i doubt you understand the distinction, though. prove me wrong.

In situations where the discontinuance of a road is in
question, the burden of proof that it has been discontinued
resides with those who wish to show it as discontinued.
In other words, public rights of way are
presumed to exist until proven otherwise.

Taken from "Fact Sheet: Class 6 Roads" put out by Nicholas Alexander, Transportation Planner, Central NH Regional Planning Commission.
Full sheet can be found: http://www.nh.gov/oep/resourcelibrary/r ... tsheet.pdf

exploringnh wrote:

wally wrote:you are mistaken. no landowner in nh has any responsibility to delineate property lines with respect to town roads. if the road is abandoned, meaning it is no longer a public (town) road, the public no longer has a right to travel it. and in such cases, the landowners are NOT required to post/sign it stating such.

if the road was a closed class vi (your words) then the yahoos that posted photos/video on the enh site were violating that particular regulation, too. (a seasonal closure of town roads for mud season).

really, though. it's obvious that you aren't interested in the correct course of action. perhaps you'll notice that the only venue in which i've discussed this is HERE, on the nea site. the only person whining is you, on the NEA site. and on this site, you do have to prove yourself to the NEA. i doubt you understand the distinction, though. prove me wrong.

In situations where the discontinuance of a road is in
question, the burden of proof that it has been discontinued
resides with those who wish to show it as discontinued.
In other words, public rights of way are
presumed to exist until proven otherwise.

Taken from "Fact Sheet: Class 6 Roads" put out by Nicholas Alexander, Transportation Planner, Central NH Regional Planning Commission.
Full sheet can be found: http://www.nh.gov/oep/resourcelibrary/r ... tsheet.pdf

you clearly misunderstand. that has zero to do with posting the property. all one has to do is investigate town archive's to locate the recording of the public meeting where the road was discontinued/abandoned, and finding the recording constitutes proof of closure.

it says absolutely nothing about posting signs along the road, property, or anything else.

if the record of such a closure exists, the recording IS the proof.

wally wrote:
you clearly misunderstand. that has zero to do with posting the property. all one has to do is investigate town archive's to locate the recording of the public meeting where the road was discontinued/abandoned, and finding the recording constitutes proof of closure.

it says absolutely nothing about posting signs along the road, property, or anything else.

if the record of such a closure exists, the recording IS the proof.

Well, thanks for clearing that up then.

FTR, when Scott posted the pics here of where the four people in question were, there were quite a few of our people who recognized it as being Carnage Hill right away. I thought they were crazy too...how could you possibly know? But when you have wheeled there for years and have done numerous trail cuts...you just remember. Scott has been working on this since it was presented. But IMO it is no longer an issue because Scott and Jay will bring you there and you will see for yourselves. It doesn't matter where those four people are from, there would have been an issue. It just so happened they were affiliated with ENH. We would be doing the same had they been members of a club that has joined the NEA.

I understand the argument that Mike and Paul went over on ENH "speaking for the NEA" so to those who don't know...it is their only exposure to the NEA. But when you, or others, come to us and several people tell you they in fact do not represent the NEA in a formal manner and they are acting as individuals, then it becomes your responsibility to take action as moderators of your forum. We have had to do the same here. NEOW has had to do the same WRT Mikey. Their mods did not come here asking us to handle the problem, they just took action. We cannot control the actions of individuals, we will never be able to fight that battle, and it is not part of the discussion on how we will improve our image. We agree they shouldn't be acting the way they did and a few of us have communicated that. But we are not cops and we have no authority over individuals. I moderate our club forum and we've never really had any problems but if someone is causing trouble they get a warning and then they get banned by their IP addy.

Personally I don't care what you all do on your forum or what you do on your runs. It is none of our business unless like in the example of Carnage it runs into something we have managed. Otherwise you can go out and wheel naked for all I care. We do not police how our own clubs are run and operated so why do we all of a sudden feel the need to dictate what ENH does, or any other group for that matter? The only time it is an issue is if someone reports illegal activity or a direct violation of our NEA By-laws-for our member clubs, or if someone is trespassing on land the NEA has acquired through the landowners. Then we have to address it. The issue of a few has been reflected on an entire group which is wrong(on both sides of the coin). The message has been given to ENH by Scott as to some of the laws and such. If ENH has any questions or wants info then they know who to go to. Everyone else should really just leave them alone unless you are looking to get to know their group better and respectfully use their forum. I happen to enjoy going on their forum and there are some pretty cool people and discussions who for the most part happen to share the same ultimate goal we do.

speaking for NEOW, we'll gladly refund your most current donation if you just dry up and go away.

From: Mikey
To: KJP98TJ
Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 4:07 pm
Subject: .
I haven't been causing any trouble over there - why don't you leave me the fawk alone

i don't do PM's from you. you brought up neow.

just letting everyone know what you're like and what you'll be. you got timed out from neow so you go to other sites and spew your shat. same as this one.

Kelsey has a personal vendetta against me that won't quit until I move out of Maine and leave every forum he's a member of.

I'm sorry, but I could care less what you think of me.

funny you don't care, but care enough to PM me when i call you on something.

it's also ironic, that you get upset about someone who doesn't frequent this forum and "hassles" you, but you have no trouble doing the same....

i have no vendetta. you brought up neow. i gave you a solution for both of us.

you could leave NEOW, that'd be easier

i'd miss all the PM's i get about what an ahole you are though.

you 2 can argue some where else.