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Postby Scott Hatch » Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:06 pm

rblank wrote:
Scott Hatch wrote:Actually what I was proposing was a coalition of of all interested parties, it has worked with great success here in out west. Friends of the Rubicon is one example of a coalition created from all interested parties.

Friends of Coy Hill

I would like to appoint Joe O as the leader of this group as he has already had the most interaction with all intrerested parties, he is local to the issue, and obviously this is an issue he cares about.


Scott, I understand what your saying about this, and it would address this one issue (Coy Hill) at this moment.

What I'm suggesting is that we need to think beyond this one issue and get going on the BIG PICTURE. I think starting another coalition would do nothing more than spread the already overactive volunteers even more.

I've said it when I first started here, and Paul brought it up again recently. We need to be PROACTIVE, not REACTIVE.


We have been PROACTIVE with Coy Hill, its been a lot of apathetic users which include members of the NEA, EC4WDA, and unaffiliated wheelers that have contributed to the downfall of Coy Hill. Sometimes it takes a crisis to break people out of their apathy and get involved. I know Paul, Joe, and others have frequesntly tried advising people to disperse their recreation and stop wheeling the same 3 places week in and week out. Did anyone listen? The answer is obvious!

I also think that this is something that Joe can lead and coordinate without being spread thing as long as it is kept to this one item.

We have lots of volunteers willing to help, its the leaders willing to coordinate the logistics and meet with important parties that is lacking BUT we have a leader NOW. A coalition IS what we need because it will give the people interested in helping on this ONE issue an arena and avenue. There are many unaffiliated wheelers and local concerned recreationist that will help and support this initiative without draining the resources from the NEA or EC4WDA.

As far as the BIG PICTURE what more can we do? We are opening new lands, speaking with state agencies, and researching new unmaintained trail networks. We are having a training session for trail patrols. We are creating a land user/land access seminar. The United Convention is being held in NH to gain further interest in the issues of our sport in the NE. Mark Dupont and I ahve meet with the officers of Blue Ribbon for advice and direction on several of our initiatives.

The biggest thing lacking is LEADERS that will get off their apathetic asses and FIGHT for their sport
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Postby Zaedock » Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:06 pm

Scott Hatch wrote:Actually what I was proposing was a coalition of of all interested parties, it has worked with great success here in out west. Friends of the Rubicon is one example of a coalition created from all interested parties.

Friends of Coy Hill

I would like to appoint Joe O as the leader of this group as he has already had the most interaction with all intrerested parties, he is local to the issue, and obviously this is an issue he cares about.


Well, I guess to make it "official", I accept your appointment. Coy is indeed local and allows me to get off the sidelines and make a difference.
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Postby tammylynn » Wed Oct 31, 2007 9:34 pm

Well said Scott.
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Postby mrfreakinwhite » Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:20 pm

I'm a mod on Cave76, it's neutral. In fact, EC and NEA people get along over there just fine without the old BS (that I also don't know the history of).

However, before moving on, I completely believe the NEA site should have something for 'other' trails like the NEA has set up for private property. A forum to schedule runs on and for, at least, us to make reservations on.

Seriously, I delayed a group to OFR this year by a day when Rich gave me a heads up that Patriots would be there. We also bumped proverbial heads at Coy Hill in July, so I changed our trail time to the afternoon. I switched trails for one other group, but I forget which trails and what group (like it matters anyway).

We do not need a committee, just an admin here (for stickying) to get started on copying the structure for the Private Property scheduling into a public trail thread. Maybe a dedicated thread in each states area.

Inviting EC4W folks to a thread would be a good gesture to move forward with, too.
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Postby Scott Hatch » Thu Nov 01, 2007 3:12 am

scheduling for NEA properties is something that has been done for years, implimenting something similiar for the few public areas wouldn't be an issue
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Postby JayZR2 » Thu Nov 01, 2007 3:59 am

MFW you have a PM.
I set up a trial public trail section. We'll give it a shot for 08 and see how it goes.
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Postby mrfreakinwhite » Thu Nov 01, 2007 7:37 am

I mostly just read posts at work or post quickly, so I'll dig in after 6 tonight.

Scott, Jay - Thank you. :D
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Postby Zaedock » Thu Nov 01, 2007 8:56 am

Paul wrote:Joe in charge of Coy Hill? Or Joe in charge of the whole Massachusetts ball of wax?? :hello:

Let get him!!!! Joe for Mass Land Use Chairperson!!! :hello:

8) 8)


Just out of curiosity (and I may have missed it if it was posted before), isn't Ryan the Ma land use chair?
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Postby Paul » Thu Nov 01, 2007 8:58 am

Last I spoke to Sidriptide over at b4w he was still up for the idea of hosting as well, not sure he set it up yet. Whatever floats, no big to me really, it sounds like we need to get something going rather soon. NE4W schedule is set already.

March: Possible snow run. Tech Day?: Building a BBQ Grill out of Jeep parts for the BBQ.
April: Rattlesnake Gutter
May: Waynes World **Sunday run**
June: Carnage Hill **Sunday run**
July: Homestead NorthEast Willys Jeep Org (newjo) club land swap
July: Rausch Creek Trip (fri-sun)
July: Host United 4wd Assoc @ WW
August: Field and Forest Campground Annual BBQ
September: Springfield, NH
October: Lewiston Maine Offroad Park
November: Wolfboro, NH, Deepwoods Extreme club land swap
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Postby JayZR2 » Thu Nov 01, 2007 9:32 am

Ryan and Liza are sort of splitting the MA land chair job right now. Ryan had some changes at work that left him short of manpower so he has added responsibilities there limiting his time here.
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Postby mrfreakinwhite » Thu Nov 01, 2007 11:22 am

Paul wrote:Last I spoke to Sidriptide over at b4w he was still up for the idea of hosting as well, not sure he set it up yet. Whatever floats, no big to me really, it sounds like we need to get something going rather soon. NE4W schedule is set already.

March: Possible snow run. Tech Day?: Building a BBQ Grill out of Jeep parts for the BBQ.
April: Rattlesnake Gutter
May: Waynes World **Sunday run**
June: Carnage Hill **Sunday run**
July: Homestead NorthEast Willys Jeep Org (newjo) club land swap
July: Rausch Creek Trip (fri-sun)
July: Host United 4wd Assoc @ WW
August: Field and Forest Campground Annual BBQ
September: Springfield, NH
October: Lewiston Maine Offroad Park
November: Wolfboro, NH, Deepwoods Extreme club land swap


Here is his new FORUM AREA
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Postby tammylynn » Thu Nov 01, 2007 1:21 pm

Well so much for waiting on a group opinion...lol
Guess we can get rid of the one here.
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Postby JayZR2 » Thu Nov 01, 2007 1:27 pm

The one on here is to coordinate runs from nea clubs.
MFW is going to fill in the trails when he gets out of work.
Last edited by JayZR2 on Thu Nov 01, 2007 1:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Paul » Thu Nov 01, 2007 1:34 pm

I'm just trying to push to get it going, follow through.
We have ours here for our lands. We can also duplicate the "public" lands one as well. Duplication isn't always necessarily a bad thing.
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Postby JayZR2 » Thu Nov 01, 2007 1:37 pm

It isn't?
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Postby JayZR2 » Thu Nov 01, 2007 1:38 pm

It isn't?
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Postby tammylynn » Thu Nov 01, 2007 1:48 pm

:roll: Lame.....

I thought the one we made here was for outside groups to use too if they wanted to participate in discussions. IDK...I personally don't like duplication because things can get lost from one place to the next. I am an anal neat/organization freak... :lol: I like everything in it's neat little place. But what's done is done so it is neither here nor there now. :P I also don't have anymore time to devote to one more forum...lol As it is now I devote too much time to the five that I go on.
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Postby mrfreakinwhite » Fri Nov 02, 2007 5:30 am

JayZR2 wrote:The one on here is to coordinate runs from nea clubs.
MFW is going to fill in the trails when he gets out of work.

Sorry, guys (and me) - I had to prep for a parent-teacher conference last night.
If anyone has a hankering to get the ball rolling with posting threads for the trails, please feel free - you're not stepping on any toes.
Tammylynn, I'll be focused on this thread that JAy and Scott set up for our house.
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Postby mrfreakinwhite » Fri Nov 02, 2007 5:31 am

JayZR2 wrote:It isn't?

Now that's comedy. :lol:
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Postby tammylynn » Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:21 am

Dry humor.... :P
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Postby rblank » Fri Nov 02, 2007 1:38 pm

Scott Hatch wrote:We have been PROACTIVE with Coy Hill, its been a lot of apathetic users which include members of the NEA, EC4WDA, and unaffiliated wheelers that have contributed to the downfall of Coy Hill. Sometimes it takes a crisis to break people out of their apathy and get involved. I know Paul, Joe, and others have frequesntly tried advising people to disperse their recreation and stop wheeling the same 3 places week in and week out. Did anyone listen? The answer is obvious!

I also think that this is something that Joe can lead and coordinate without being spread thing as long as it is kept to this one item.

We have lots of volunteers willing to help, its the leaders willing to coordinate the logistics and meet with important parties that is lacking BUT we have a leader NOW. A coalition IS what we need because it will give the people interested in helping on this ONE issue an arena and avenue. There are many unaffiliated wheelers and local concerned recreationist that will help and support this initiative without draining the resources from the NEA or EC4WDA.

As far as the BIG PICTURE what more can we do? We are opening new lands, speaking with state agencies, and researching new unmaintained trail networks. We are having a training session for trail patrols. We are creating a land user/land access seminar. The United Convention is being held in NH to gain further interest in the issues of our sport in the NE. Mark Dupont and I ahve meet with the officers of Blue Ribbon for advice and direction on several of our initiatives.

The biggest thing lacking is LEADERS that will get off their apathetic asses and FIGHT for their sport


Scott, I have to respectfully disagree with you on some points. We're being Proactive at Coy Hill as a Reactive measure. To me, being proactive is heading off the problem before it occurs, not after. You are correct that we've tried to dissuade folks from using the places time after time, but it falls on deaf ears. I wish I knew how to change that. I dunno, maybe the coalition thing will work, especially if Joe is willing to lead it. I'm just concerned about spreading out already active volunteers even more.
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Postby Paul » Fri Nov 02, 2007 1:48 pm

Roger you're liking that "togetherness" concept ain't ya?

You really do have a thing for other men don't you?

:lol:

:P
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Postby rblank » Fri Nov 02, 2007 2:00 pm

No Paul, I'm fed up with the seperation of this club and that State, and my Association, and your a "renegade."

You think the hikers sit on their forums and argue over who's got the better hiking boot? You think the Timberland boot users have a club verses the Merrill's? I seriously doubt it. I haven't seen a forum for associations of the differnet bird watching binocular users. I fear the seperation and sub conscious excessive compitition is doing us more harm than good, I really do.

The mind set HAS to change. I've been saying it for quite some time.
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Postby Paul » Fri Nov 02, 2007 2:23 pm

I'm a renegade?!? :cry: :cry:

oh well.




yea, I've been saying for 10 years too. It was my MO when I was in EC4WDA way back then.
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Postby rblank » Fri Nov 02, 2007 2:28 pm

You know what I mean..... 0]

:roll:
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Postby tammylynn » Fri Nov 02, 2007 3:09 pm

Maybe Scott used the wrong word...but his message is still correct. As far as spreading people to thin-that is not our call to make. If someone steps up and volunteers for something, that is their decision. We've never held a gun to anyone's head, so to speak, to take on a responsibility.

I don't think you can fight separation and I'm not sure why you think we are doing that? I have read in several posts lately that our goal is to bring user groups together. Like it or not we are all separate entities. An Association is just that. A club is a club. A non-affiliated wheeler is a non-affiliated wheeler. And I would disagree with you Roger. I think any type of recreational group has the same battle. There are those that choose to be part of an organization and conform and there are those that don't. That can happen in any aspect of life. It is the way of society and I don't think we can ever change that! I know what your point is but I think you need to stop focusing on that kind of stuff and put more effort into the positive work that is being done. We can't go back and undo what has been done in the past-but we can always make a difference in what will happen in the future. :wink:
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Postby smileyfish » Fri Nov 02, 2007 8:10 pm

i think there are some great ideas in this thread. i hope that this does happen.

some one asked why so many clubs, my guess is the sport has spread to more people than 1 or 2 clubs can handel. i know over at bay state we are full and have a waiting list for next year already, plus there are different levels of clubs. most in bsj couldn't handle ne stuff, some could but not most. there are hundreds of wheelers in mass alone, most are not with a club, when some one asks me where are the trails i tell them to join a club with legal trails, most have joined some where.

the few trails we have are being over used and we do need to do something about it.
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Postby mrfreakinwhite » Fri Nov 02, 2007 10:38 pm

smileyfish wrote:i think there are some great ideas in this thread. i hope that this does happen.

some one asked why so many clubs, my guess is the sport has spread to more people than 1 or 2 clubs can handel. i know over at bay state we are full and have a waiting list for next year already, plus there are different levels of clubs. most in bsj couldn't handle ne stuff, some could but not most. there are hundreds of wheelers in mass alone, most are not with a club, when some one asks me where are the trails i tell them to join a club with legal trails, most have joined some where.

the few trails we have are being over used and we do need to do something about it.

Yup, manage properties amongst ourselves, openly.
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Postby rblank » Sun Nov 04, 2007 10:36 am

What difference does it make if 1000 people in 21 small clubs run the Gutter, or 1000 people in 5 big clubs run the Gutter? It's seeing the same amount of people, but it's cutting down on the management and "overhead" of running clubs. I don't personally understand why people have to belong to 3 or 4 clubs. (Disclaimer: I belong to 2, one NEA, one EC, and I'm looking into joining a 3rd, but we all know I don't wheel anyway. :roll:) We're all running pretty much the same stuff. It's like asking what weighs more, a pound of bricks or a pound of feathers. It's the same, it's just how you package it.

My point is there are all these people caught up in running these clubs with 20 members. Imagine if there were 5 big clubs (we'll keep one "Jeep only" for some of you.) If you take an average of 4 BOD members per club (Pres, VP, Treas, Sec.) over 15 clubs that no longer exist (relax, it's just an example) you'd have 60 extra people to devote their time and energy to other things, Land use, finding trails, leading runs, lobbying, organizing events, etc.... You're concerned over the level of trails some clubs run? With 5 clubs, you may need to have 3 or 4 "club runs" per month of varying levels. But you'd have the additional volunteers to handle this because 60 other people aren't dealing with calling a club vote, running a club meeting, moderating a club forum, promoting a club event, Image Image Image Image Image

Unfortunately running a wheeling club is less about wheeling and more about people and asset management. Those active in their club will probably regretably agree.

I'm not supposed to have to think this hard on a Sunday morning. :cry:
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Postby Scott Hatch » Sun Nov 04, 2007 10:45 am

People are people Roger, in an ideal world everyone would get together and their would be no gonads and strife. However their are always personality conflicts and people don't get a long. The majority of the clubs in NE were created because a couple of people couldn't get along and decided to create their own club.

Its the nature of the beast, you can only accept the reality of the situation.
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Postby rblank » Sun Nov 04, 2007 10:50 am

I know Scott, belive me, I know. It's unfortunate, but you're right, that's the way it is. I just wish people could get past that and do what's best for the sport. We NEED a united front but with the current mindset, I don't know if it's realisticly achieveable.

My ideas are radical and in some cases rediculous. But it's the way my mind works. :(
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Postby Scott Hatch » Sun Nov 04, 2007 10:57 am

Not that I am religious or an alcoholic (nor anything against those that may be) but the serenity prayer from AA says it best...

"God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can and the wisdom to know the difference."
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Postby rblank » Sun Nov 04, 2007 11:06 am

Yeah, that's the problem... I have a difficult time telling the difference.

I'm not happy with Status Quo.
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Postby rblank » Sun Nov 04, 2007 11:10 am

The latest posts in the Homestead thread on NEOW are a perfect example of the separatist attitudes I speak of. We'll never change that attitude as a sport, it'll take a greater change in society. :cry:
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Postby Scott Hatch » Sun Nov 04, 2007 11:11 am

I couldn't tell :lol: ;)

I'm not happy with the status quo either, the hardest thing is trying to break people out of their apathetic ways.
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Postby JayZR2 » Sun Nov 04, 2007 12:55 pm

rblank wrote: I just wish people could get past that and do what's best for the sport. We NEED a united front but with the current mindset, I don't know if it's realisticly achieveable.
:(


Where was this guy when we were working on the fallcrawl raffle? :lol:
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Postby mike_belben » Sun Nov 04, 2007 1:35 pm

roger, these same types of thoughts have been on my mind alot lately and ive done alot of pondering on what exactly is the problem, and how can it be changed.

im starting to think the problem is the various cultures that we as people create.. cultures being those things you just cant call out, put a finger on, cite or quote.. theyre there, you know they are, you just cant prove it or bring up an example. when you imply someone might be a part of the other culture or "the problem" they get defensive, they give you 10 reasons how they arent part of the problem, point the finger in 10 other places and say a few things about your mom. before you know it, you've got a whole other "problem" and starting your own club starts looking like the easiest thing to do. too many type A's in one pot. i myself am guilty of having difficulty getting along with other intelligent people who arent seeing things my way. i guess i have to remind myself to shut up every now and then.


i think rather than trying to point fingers or "educate" one person (and ending up in some huge E-fight) we all need to start working to create a culture of positive reinforcements for doing the right thing. from cleaning up trash to yielding for someone in traffic. tiny things lead to big things and in the end, self policing is about respect. respecting that the person in the crosswalk has the right of way, respecting that i should always use my blinker for land changes, respecting that it isnt right to toss my mcdonalds bag out on the trail. no matter who is watching.

scott has made the point about apathy, someone else i know has a signature saying "get involved, the world is run by those who show up." those of us here are doers, but we're having a hard time getting the sheep to follow so to speak. i think we need to intentionally start creating the culture of high-fives for good deeds, and do a lot less blaming of those who arent in on it.
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Postby rblank » Sun Nov 04, 2007 1:53 pm

mike_belben wrote:<snip> respecting that i should always use my blinker for land changes, <snip>


Best typo ever! :lol: I don't like this parcel....I want that one....*blink, blink.....blink, blink*


Mike you're 110% correct IMO. I think my frustration with these types of issues stems from a greater disappointment from society as a whole, not just the wheeling community.

Time to "Pay it Forward" as they say.
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Postby markdupont » Sun Nov 04, 2007 2:46 pm

rblank wrote:The latest posts in the Homestead thread on NEOW are a perfect example of the separatist attitudes I speak of. We'll never change that attitude as a sport, it'll take a greater change in society. :cry:


Separatist attitudes???? Explain.
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Postby markdupont » Sun Nov 04, 2007 2:48 pm

JayZR2 wrote:
rblank wrote: I just wish people could get past that and do what's best for the sport. We NEED a united front but with the current mindset, I don't know if it's realisticly achieveable.
:(


Where was this guy when we were working on the fallcrawl raffle? :lol:


was there something wrong with the raffle?
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Postby Scott Hatch » Sun Nov 04, 2007 3:02 pm

markdupont wrote:
rblank wrote:The latest posts in the Homestead thread on NEOW are a perfect example of the separatist attitudes I speak of. We'll never change that attitude as a sport, it'll take a greater change in society. :cry:


Separatist attitudes???? Explain.


NH vs MA
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Postby markdupont » Sun Nov 04, 2007 3:50 pm

Scott Hatch wrote:
markdupont wrote:
rblank wrote:The latest posts in the Homestead thread on NEOW are a perfect example of the separatist attitudes I speak of. We'll never change that attitude as a sport, it'll take a greater change in society. :cry:


Separatist attitudes???? Explain.


NH vs MA


I saw one individual bashing MA and several from both states unite and support each other... would that not be unity?
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Postby JayZR2 » Sun Nov 04, 2007 6:27 pm

No Mark there was nothing wrong with the raffle. I thought enough time had passed that we could make light of the difficulties in coordinating the work done by Roger and Heidi and you. I guess not. Wasn't trying rock the boat, just wanted to give Rog a little friendly ribbing. Hence the smiley at the end.
Sorry if I pissed anyone off. It wasn't meant to be a malicious thing.
:oops:
hyp·o·crite   [hip-uh-krit]
noun
1. A person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess, especially a person whose actions belie stated beliefs.
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Postby markdupont » Mon Nov 05, 2007 1:09 pm

JayZR2 wrote:No Mark there was nothing wrong with the raffle. I thought enough time had passed that we could make light of the difficulties in coordinating the work done by Roger and Heidi and you. I guess not. Wasn't trying rock the boat, just wanted to give Rog a little friendly ribbing. Hence the smiley at the end.
Sorry if I pissed anyone off. It wasn't meant to be a malicious thing.
:oops:


ok, cool... I thought the only complaint was Scotty taking his sweet-arsed time giving stuff away!!!!
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Postby mikesmaxx » Mon Nov 05, 2007 1:14 pm

markdupont wrote:
ok, cool... I thought the only complaint was Scotty taking his sweet-arsed time giving stuff away!!!!


Scott did just fine giving them away,seeing how I got the first and last prize. :P
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Postby Scott Hatch » Mon Nov 05, 2007 1:17 pm

markdupont wrote:
JayZR2 wrote:No Mark there was nothing wrong with the raffle. I thought enough time had passed that we could make light of the difficulties in coordinating the work done by Roger and Heidi and you. I guess not. Wasn't trying rock the boat, just wanted to give Rog a little friendly ribbing. Hence the smiley at the end.
Sorry if I pissed anyone off. It wasn't meant to be a malicious thing.
:oops:


ok, cool... I thought the only complaint was Scotty taking his sweet-arsed time giving stuff away!!!!


That was my favorite, maybe for FC '08 we'll get less prizes so the raffle won't take as long :roll:
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Postby ufwda-landuse » Thu Dec 27, 2007 1:18 pm

I just started reading this thread, and let me throw out my $.02 here.
I am not a member of NEA or EC, but on the BOD's for UFWDA.

One of the things that those of us in Land Use have been preaching, and talking about, is running our (yes our) clubs and organizations more like a business. The Anti-Access groups are run more like a business, and that is why they get lots of cash in donations. They have grant writers also on staff to help solicit grants from various foundations. I know it is hard at times to put personal differences aside and work for the betterment of the organization. This can be seen in any club or organization. We even have these issues out west here and in my own local club.
It is up to the BOD's to take input from the membership on where the club or organization should focus their attention for the best bang for their buck.

Another current trend is Friends groups, like "Friends of Coy Hill" or "Friends of the Rubicon." Most of these are just groups with no by-laws, or organizational structure, other then a group of like minded people in support of a common goal. FOTR went a step further and created a Rubicon Trail Foundation so they could solicit donations and have money for group trail projects when money was needed to buy a few supplies. They also use this money to pay for food to feed the volunteers when other donations do not come through, or increase the amount of food for a work weekend. This has worked very well for them, but may not fit well with all groups. Each group can really do as they wish in how they set up their group. Others have set up an organizational structure and become a 501.(c).3 or non-profit so they can take donations.

Here in Cali, we are working to have a land use managers meeting of those working issues within the state at the Cal 4 Wheel convention in Feb.

It will be something like the one we had at the UFWDA AGM last July.

Hope this helps.

Todd
Director of Environmental Affairs
United Four Wheel Drive Associations
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Postby tammylynn » Sat Dec 29, 2007 10:36 am

ufwda-landuse wrote:I just started reading this thread, and let me throw out my $.02 here.
I am not a member of NEA or EC, but on the BOD's for UFWDA.

One of the things that those of us in Land Use have been preaching, and talking about, is running our (yes our) clubs and organizations more like a business. The Anti-Access groups are run more like a business, and that is why they get lots of cash in donations. They have grant writers also on staff to help solicit grants from various foundations. I know it is hard at times to put personal differences aside and work for the betterment of the organization. This can be seen in any club or organization. We even have these issues out west here and in my own local club.
It is up to the BOD's to take input from the membership on where the club or organization should focus their attention for the best bang for their buck.

Another current trend is Friends groups, like "Friends of Coy Hill" or "Friends of the Rubicon." Most of these are just groups with no by-laws, or organizational structure, other then a group of like minded people in support of a common goal. FOTR went a step further and created a Rubicon Trail Foundation so they could solicit donations and have money for group trail projects when money was needed to buy a few supplies. They also use this money to pay for food to feed the volunteers when other donations do not come through, or increase the amount of food for a work weekend. This has worked very well for them, but may not fit well with all groups. Each group can really do as they wish in how they set up their group. Others have set up an organizational structure and become a 501.(c).3 or non-profit so they can take donations.

Here in Cali, we are working to have a land use managers meeting of those working issues within the state at the Cal 4 Wheel convention in Feb.

It will be something like the one we had at the UFWDA AGM last July.

Hope this helps.

Todd


We are also trying to make that conversion here but so far most of the changes that would allow us to do so have been met with resistance. I am glad you have posted because something we have been trying to "preach" is that this is becoming the way of Associations all across the country. Granted we are probably one of the youngest Associations but we have taken on some issues and are approaching a point for the future where we will need to step up our game or we will lose.

We have Association meetings every other month and that is when all of the Land Managers/Chairs are required to submit a report for their state. Underneath the Land Manager/Chairs there are Land Use Committees for each of the New England states and they can, and do, hold meetings whenever they feel it is necessary.

I felt the LU session of the AGM in Colorado was very useful and much better than just having a standard lecture for an hour. It was so reassuring to hear about the work being done across the country and abroad, and to learn that we are all having the same issues. Often times we sit here thinking that everyone West of us has it so good because they have places like MOAB and the Rubicon and others. Not that it is good that you have to fight too but it is good to know we are not alone.
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Postby mike_belben » Tue Jan 08, 2008 2:41 am

ufwda-landuse wrote:The Anti-Access groups are run more like a business


the importance of this cannot be stressed enough.. the anti-access groups ARE a business and they are taking over not only our public lands out west as Todd can tell you, but also our constitutional rights.

most of us think of them as nature lovers who dont want to see the environment damaged, which is reasonable. ive spent the last month buried in research on environmental activists and their ties to government and i can tell you they arent reasonable. the extremists behind these movements detest humans and their role on earth, to the extent that the most radical among them regard aids and cancer as blessings because it reduces population without harming "mother earth." these same wacko's are behind the wildlands project that wants grizzles and wolves roaming from alaska to mexico while humans are confined to cities. several key extremists who've all spent time in prison for "monkeywrenching" (industrial sabotage such as bombing dams, bridges, roads, setting fire to research labs and govt facilities etc) have sat on the board of directors of sierra club, nature conservancy and other seemingly legitimate organizations. all organizations belonging to the IUCN, which was granted immunity from lawsuit by clinton in 1996.

you cannot sue the sierra club. thats how powerful these groups are. they introduce constant legislation, they use the endangered species act of 1973 to force land owners off their land, farmers into bankruptcy by finding "endangered" fish and judges who will grant water rights to said fish, thereby ending irrigation to the land. these groups have succeeded in taking MILLIONS of acres.

to further illustrate the point:
the United States Constitution states "No person shall be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation."

the Endangered Species Act of 1973 came from the UN treaty and is used to constantly violate the above portion of the consitution by taking land via emminent domain without paying the landowners a cent. since any citizen can petition to list an animal as endangered and the secretary of the interior must respond within 90 days using the "best available data" to determine if the species is in fact troubled or the petitioner can file a suit of noncompliance with a federal law on the secretary. the activists just keep the dept of the interior flooded with listings. the act has only had 33 animals delisted in its history that i can find (of over 900) and all of them were because the animal either became extinct, large quantities of them were "discovered" elsewhere or there was an "error" in listing them.

the number of lands taken, millions of dollars lost, number of lives ruined by this political weapon of activists, is unimaginable.

consider this a call to organize.
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Postby rblank » Tue Jan 08, 2008 8:55 am

And Mike if off and ranting....er....running. :lol:
*DISCLAIMER* - The views expressed herein are the personal views of the author and do not in any way represent, nor imply to represent, the views of the North East Association of 4 Wheel Drive Clubs, it's officers, members, or affiliates.
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