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Postby adk_tj » Tue Nov 06, 2007 11:32 am

Whew, that was alot of catching up!

I've started some rumblings over at the EC4WDA forum (which is in need of an upgrade, I'm sorry to say). However, many points here are points I'm trying to address there.

What I'm hoping for is more coordination between our two Associations regarding trails, which means we need more trust and more openness than we've seen in the past. Taking the private trails off the list, I feel we need to publish a Trail Management Plan that all of our clubs can follow (albeit voluntarily).
In a nutshell, I'd like to see a list of public trails and roads published. Not the exact location, nor published for public viewing, but perhaps just a name and/or State/county veiwable by club presidents and/or members. From this "master list", clubs from both Associations can schedule their rides, with the individual clubs submitting their schedule early in the season to their respective Association. Scott and myself (and/or Land Use chairs) can then compare notes to find conflicts or months where one trail sees too much use and then suggest alternate trails to the clubs. It would only work if everyone was on board, and to keep it fair each club would need to be willing to change a run or two each year to accommodate another club. I know alot of autonomy is lost, but with some trails seeing insane amounts of use and others relatively "open", it would be easier to spread out our use if we could actually SEE who/what/where/and when.

We could do a sit-down discussion in December perhaps, and hammer out some more stuff?
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Postby Paul » Tue Nov 06, 2007 11:46 am

I'm willing to listen.

But from the hip I would say the real problem with publishing a public list is that legally: Ma Bell, Coy Hill, Rattlesnake Gutter and probably a lot of others will NOT be on that list. They are private property or WMA's.
The class 6 database is the closest thing we have to a publication, and that is still a work in progress.

The idea is not new though...a published list of trails. I'm very leery.
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Postby JayZR2 » Tue Nov 06, 2007 11:48 am

I am very supportative of a meeting with EC4WD.
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Postby Scott Hatch » Tue Nov 06, 2007 11:48 am

I was meaning to mention some type of summit with Brill in Vegas but it slipped my mind completely.

I agree, lets sit down somewhere and discuss this. When is a good date and time for you?

You're in NY and I'm in NH, maybe meet somewhere in MA?
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Postby Scott Hatch » Tue Nov 06, 2007 11:49 am

BTW I am going to break this into its own thread so we can keep this discussion on its own :up:
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Postby Paul » Tue Nov 06, 2007 11:51 am

Thank you. It's been 3 pages, I forgot what my idea was. :lol: :lol:
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Postby adk_tj » Tue Nov 06, 2007 11:58 am

November is booked, but I'm free December 1st/2nd and the 15th/16th. Name the place (I'm about 2 hours from Adams, MA - google Glens Falls, NY :wink: )

Let's get a list together and peel the ones away that don't belong. I know the idea isn't new, but it's needed now more than ever.

<OT>Also, I'm doing a presentation to the NYS Trails Council (I'm a 4x4 delegate) next spring and it would be great to show just how little mileage the thousands of OHV'rs actually have in the NE.</OT>
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Postby Paul » Tue Nov 06, 2007 12:01 pm

I'd be for the idea, as long as someone can draw up a strict itinerary of what we're going to talk about, and future goals to be met. I'd hate to waste time. :paul:
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Postby Liza » Tue Nov 06, 2007 12:02 pm

I think any discussions between NEA and EC are a good idea. I'm all for this.


Paul wrote: But from the hip I would say the real problem with publishing a public list is that legally: Ma Bell, Coy Hill, Rattlesnake Gutter and probably a lot of others will NOT be on that list. They are private property or WMA's.


Regardless of whether or not these trails are "legally public" in the strictest sense, these are trails that the general public has access to, like it or not. Anything we can do to coordinate efforts to minimize impact to these places is a good thing, no?
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Postby JayZR2 » Tue Nov 06, 2007 12:04 pm

I can prob swing either of those dates. 1/2 might work better though since I think I am already heading out to syracuse that weekend.
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Postby adk_tj » Tue Nov 06, 2007 12:09 pm

I can post up what's in my head... :D

and I agree...if the trails are being run, then we should do our best to make sure they're being protected as much as we can.
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Postby JayZR2 » Tue Nov 06, 2007 12:11 pm

Liza wrote:I think any discussions between NEA and EC are a good idea. I'm all for this.


Paul wrote: But from the hip I would say the real problem with publishing a public list is that legally: Ma Bell, Coy Hill, Rattlesnake Gutter and probably a lot of others will NOT be on that list. They are private property or WMA's.


Regardless of whether or not these trails are "legally public" in the strictest sense, these are trails that the general public has access to, like it or not. Anything we can do to coordinate efforts to minimize impact to these places is a good thing, no?


X eleventybillion
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Postby Paul » Tue Nov 06, 2007 12:19 pm

JayZR2 wrote:
Liza wrote:I think any discussions between NEA and EC are a good idea. I'm all for this.


Paul wrote: But from the hip I would say the real problem with publishing a public list is that legally: Ma Bell, Coy Hill, Rattlesnake Gutter and probably a lot of others will NOT be on that list. They are private property or WMA's.


Regardless of whether or not these trails are "legally public" in the strictest sense, these are trails that the general public has access to, like it or not. Anything we can do to coordinate efforts to minimize impact to these places is a good thing, no?


X eleventybillion


Yes, but I'd be against making a publication with these locations, unless there was full legal disclosure that these are in fact private properties. I'm still waiting to hear from our President, I know in the past he has not wheeled Ma Bell or advised scheduling wheeling at Ma Bell on account of its legal limbo status. I'm waiting to see if he's changed his opinion.
Whatever he says....I'll go along with. :paul:
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Postby JayZR2 » Tue Nov 06, 2007 12:25 pm

I just wanted to try and coordinate useage.
I think the cat is out of the bag though on most of these. Anyone can google a name and prob find a map and or directions.
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Postby Liza » Tue Nov 06, 2007 12:32 pm

I'd like to be involved in this (as many of these are in Mass)...however, I am 4 hours from North Adams. :roll:
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Postby Paul » Tue Nov 06, 2007 12:40 pm

JayZR2 wrote:I just wanted to try and coordinate useage.
.


That's MY idea! :wink: :wink: :wink:

This is why I said....create a totally NEUTRAL place for us to gather. Then everyone had to start piping in...."well why not here?" Probably for the same damn reason we don't go there and post all the time......it's not home....people we don't know are...."Icky" or something. Who TF knows why not?? I don't know....Just somebody....pick a page and a website and run with it....My idea was B4W's board. Nice guys, no beefs with ANYONE at all, Mike (sidriptide) is relatively new, newish place, never hurt a flea and wants more traffic to his place.

Sheesh. Everything has to be a production. :roll:

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Postby Scott Hatch » Tue Nov 06, 2007 12:47 pm

We are discussing coordination of trails that are generally used by all, teh majority of the names are codes to begin with. As long as we don't disclose any information other than the name I think we'll be OK.

Like it was said prior, anyone can research these trail names from our sites & forums and then look directions somewhere.
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Postby rblank » Tue Nov 06, 2007 12:47 pm

Don't start going off on a tangent.

It's happening, let it be.
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Postby Liza » Tue Nov 06, 2007 12:48 pm

FTR, I don't think B4W forum is neutral.

Holy Crap Paul, what's that harm in meeting in person to discuss issues that affect ALL OF US?
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Postby Liza » Tue Nov 06, 2007 12:50 pm

Also, either of the weekends mentioned is peachy for me.
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Postby Paul » Tue Nov 06, 2007 12:57 pm

:?
The meeting is going to come out like this:

1) We need to stop using the same places so much, and corral "un-sanctioned" club runs at these places.

2) We need to work together to open more trails and push our agenda through to the state governments.

There's your meeting.
:?
I'd suggest a Friday night or a sunday...because everyone is booked solid on weekends. Also be wary of when the pats play. There's no way you're going to get all the players available with an open schedule.

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Postby adk_tj » Tue Nov 06, 2007 1:12 pm

Paul wrote::?
The meeting is going to come out like this:
1) We need to stop using the same places so much, and corral "un-sanctioned" club runs at these places.
2) We need to work together to open more trails and push our agenda through to the state governments.
There's your meeting.
:?

:paul:


Actually, skip step #2. And add some more content to step #1.
Although I don't understand it (nor care to at this point), I'm well aware of the residual animosity between the Ass'es. I also understand the loyalties and the need for autonomy. There's nothing grandiose going on during this, I hope, annual (at least) meeting, just trying to clear the air and help our existing trail network. The rest can wait for now.
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Postby Scott Hatch » Tue Nov 06, 2007 1:19 pm

adk_tj wrote: animosity between the Ass'es. .


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

OMG that just struck me SOO F'n funny :lol: sorry, couldn't that pass..... :lol: ....
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Postby rblank » Tue Nov 06, 2007 1:21 pm

These two associations working together is long overdue. We're both here to protect ALL motorized trails and recreation, not just public, not just private, not just popular and over run.

Set a reasonable agenda, with realistic goals and stick to it, then work on it from there.

I certainly hope this goes much further than the last time this was tried. I wish you all the best of luck and hope you all keep open minds. I'd personally like to be able to attend, but I just don't think it's going to work for my schedule. But progress waits for no man....
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Postby Scott Hatch » Tue Nov 06, 2007 1:21 pm

adk_tj wrote:
Paul wrote::?
The meeting is going to come out like this:
1) We need to stop using the same places so much, and corral "un-sanctioned" club runs at these places.
2) We need to work together to open more trails and push our agenda through to the state governments.
There's your meeting.
:?

:paul:


Actually, skip step #2. And add some more content to step #1.
Although I don't understand it (nor care to at this point), I'm well aware of the residual animosity between the Ass'es. I also understand the loyalties and the need for autonomy. There's nothing grandiose going on during this, I hope, annual (at least) meeting, just trying to clear the air and help our existing trail network. The rest can wait for now.


OK...serious now.....I think we should discuss a couple of things in regards to #2, at least so we are on the same page and can support each others intiatives.
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Postby Paul » Tue Nov 06, 2007 1:30 pm

I'll be frank in my commentary, I don't mean to start useless dribble, I just have honest questions, and I was around for most of the animosity over the years, and I was like you guys 7 years ago trying to get EVERYONE together.

My real question though is why? seriously just why? I think that is what quelled a meeting last time. The nea does there thing and the ec does their thing, we've been cohabitating and coexistiong and making progress since the neas inception in 2001. Seriously, new clubs start up all the time because the leaders do not see eye to eye and they go start their own club, for whatever reason. I think the to ass's are doing the same thing, going about thier business. We fight, bicker, and snub eachother enough in our own little world and now we want to add more people to fight, bicker and snub?

I'm just asking, I'm still all ears. That is why I say YES, do it, just get an agenda that NEEDS to be worked on by ALL members of the community; coy hill, OFR, the crowding of trails, yea those are all things we can meet and discuss. I'm just afraid we're all going to get together and sit in a room and say "yea, this is great, we need to work together, because we should work together, on stuff, on every thing, united we stand, yea..."
Otherwise, we're all busy enough with our own little clubs and wheeling worlds.

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Postby adk_tj » Tue Nov 06, 2007 1:37 pm

Scott Hatch wrote:[
OK...serious now.....I think we should discuss a couple of things in regards to #2, at least so we are on the same page and can support each others intiatives.


Here or in person?

I can post up what I'm doing here in NY and what I plan on doing, but it'll have to wait for a day (I have a project due out today and already spent more time here than I should :lol: )

How about December 1st, 11am? Anyone know a good place?
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Postby rblank » Tue Nov 06, 2007 1:40 pm

You want to know why Paul? Here's why:

Publicly accessible trails CLOSED in the last few years:
- Beacon
- Nam
- Abbott Mtn
- Driveshaft Hill
- Coy Hill
- Gutter & Ma Bell next?
These are only ones I know about in my short time

Publically accessible trails OPENED in the last few years:















:crickets:

Maybe we're not making the progress we think we are.
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Postby Paul » Tue Nov 06, 2007 1:56 pm

That's why we're all here in the first place. :roll:
That's just rhetoric and you know it as well as I do.
You think the two associations getting together would have stopped any of that?

Some people work better when they are not in the same room together.
Heck, just look at me and Dan Stra. :lol: We work great together now!
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Postby Scott Hatch » Tue Nov 06, 2007 2:56 pm

adk_tj wrote:How about December 1st, 11am? Anyone know a good place?


The date works for me, the time will depend on the location. I'll look on a map and try to find a 1/2 way point.
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Postby Paul » Tue Nov 06, 2007 3:07 pm

Scott Hatch wrote:
adk_tj wrote:How about December 1st, 11am? Anyone know a good place?


The date works for me, the time will depend on the location. I'll look on a map and try to find a 1/2 way point.


November is booked, but I'm free December 1st/2nd and the 15th/16th. Name the place (I'm about 2 hours from Adams, MA - google Glens Falls, NY )


How about the Charlemont Inn?
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Postby adk_tj » Tue Nov 06, 2007 3:15 pm

works for me...
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Postby Scott Hatch » Tue Nov 06, 2007 3:34 pm

OK, that actually looks like a good 1/2 way point, its 2 hours for me as well (according to Mapquest) :up:

Do we need a room or the bar?
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Postby rblank » Tue Nov 06, 2007 3:41 pm

Scott Hatch wrote:Do we need a room or the bar?


:lol: Expecting that rough of a time?

Paul wrote:That's why we're all here in the first place. :roll:
That's just rhetoric and you know it as well as I do.
You think the two associations getting together would have stopped any of that?

Some people work better when they are not in the same room together.
Heck, just look at me and Dan Stra. :lol: We work great together now!


It's no rhetoric, it's just the truth. Would everyone working together have prevented it? No way of ever knowing, but I don't think it would have hurt.
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Postby adk_tj » Tue Nov 06, 2007 3:46 pm

Scott Hatch wrote:Do we need a room or the bar?


Or that good of a time :lol:
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Postby Paul » Tue Nov 06, 2007 4:31 pm

1) Get an itinerary.
2) Get some goals.
3) Set the date/time.
4) Call the Charlemont Inn.
5) Post the word to the Masses.
6) Call the Inn with a head count.

ready,
set,
go!

It's been a dogs age since I been to the bar there, but last I recall you could fit 30 in there no problem.

From my personal experience, everyone and their uncle books crap on saturdays, go with a sunday. .02
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Postby adk_tj » Tue Nov 06, 2007 4:38 pm

Paul wrote:1) Get an itinerary.
2) Get some goals.
3) Set the date/time.
4) Call the Charlemont Inn.
5) Post the word to the Masses.
6) Call the Inn with a head count.

It's been a dogs age since I been to the bar there, but last I recall you could fit 30 in there no problem.



THIRTY?
I think my intentions, or at least my understanding of things, was a bit off. I was actually just looking at a little brainstorming session/meet and greet between myself, Dave Brill, Scott, and perhaps the officers of NEA. I don't think we're ready nor is this idea ready for the masses quite yet. Am I off base here? Then perhaps a larger meeting if needed, but I think the NEA and EC forums are fine for information dissemination.
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Postby rblank » Tue Nov 06, 2007 4:54 pm

adk_tj wrote: I was actually just looking at a little brainstorming session/meet and greet between myself, Dave Brill, Scott, and perhaps the officers of NEA.


That's the way I was looking at it.
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Postby Paul » Tue Nov 06, 2007 5:02 pm

Typical East Coaster........throwing the weight of the titles in his sig around.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Hey, I'm not a president, but I am a client. :P

I don't think I'm a company executive.....you all have fun at your meeting. :wink:
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Postby adk_tj » Tue Nov 06, 2007 5:15 pm

Sweet...now there's room for strippers. :wink:
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Postby Paul » Tue Nov 06, 2007 5:36 pm

Damn. :cry:

I bet Tammy's psyched now.

Image
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Postby JayZR2 » Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:31 pm

I was thinking small and informal too, 5 -6 people tops.
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Postby mrfreakinwhite » Tue Nov 06, 2007 7:25 pm

adk_tj wrote:Sweet...now there's room for strippers. :wink:

So, hey dude.
Did your club also join the NEA? Cool (if so). I was asking around JonFund to see if that was something we wanted to explore several months ago. It seemed like added expense with little benefit on paper, but the idea is still alluring to me.

Yes, NEA4WD and EC4WD summit. Nice. I was going to offer my place as a meeting spot, but it's not 1/2 way enough.
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Postby Scott Hatch » Tue Nov 06, 2007 9:07 pm

I would like to include myself, Jay, Paul , and Liza
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Postby ToxicTurtle » Tue Nov 06, 2007 9:26 pm

so I can come too?? :D Woo Hoo!
Dec 1/2 That Sunday is the Region D Toys 4 Tots ride... Sat (Dec 1) works for me and Charlemont is close to that 2 hour break point.
Let me know.

Talk soon,

Check out that sig!! :lol: :lol: and its not even up to date... :lol: :lol:
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Postby tammylynn » Tue Nov 06, 2007 9:26 pm

Well I was going to include myself in case you needed a note taker...well and if there are strippers..I'm there. But I wasn't in Scott's list so maybe I'll just go over to Tens. 0]
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Postby Scott Hatch » Tue Nov 06, 2007 9:31 pm

I didn't think you'd want to attend, it is going to be about a 2 hour drive.

Its fine with me and I know your notes are lights years better than mine :u:

DAVE: December 1st it is :up:
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Postby tammylynn » Tue Nov 06, 2007 9:33 pm

Pretty sure I can make it. I was going to suggest carpooling but the last time I rode with you I peed my pants.
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Postby JayZR2 » Tue Nov 06, 2007 9:36 pm

TMI
hyp·o·crite   [hip-uh-krit]
noun
1. A person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess, especially a person whose actions belie stated beliefs.
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JayZR2
 
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Postby Scott Hatch » Tue Nov 06, 2007 9:36 pm

:shock: and I thought it was a coffee spill :lol: ;)

Unless you came to me I would be back tracking about 45 minutes and it would be quicker for you going down to 495 and then taking RT 2 west
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Scott Hatch
 
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