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Postby tammylynn » Tue Nov 06, 2007 9:45 pm

Yep. Ugh...Route 2 Anyhoo...pretty sure it's not a problemo.
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Postby adk_tj » Tue Nov 06, 2007 10:39 pm

Aim for noon?
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Postby Paul » Tue Nov 06, 2007 11:16 pm

Dave, that's a hell of a sig.

You get a free bowl of soup with that sig??

:P :P :P :P :P
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Postby mike_belben » Wed Nov 07, 2007 3:12 am

id like to suggest the possibility of getting some massachusetts politicians to attend, and adding to the agenda. i think paul is right in that it wont be worth the drive (compared to sitting at home typing the same things) unless something serious is going to occur. "lets work together and not overuse trails" ..the same thing that gets said on every board, every week.

massachusetts is a battleground state that needs legislation introduced. we've got the land and we attract the masses of CT, RI and NY.. we have easily as much offroad tourist traffic as NH imo, if not more. ive seen many new jersey, ny and CT plates at coy hill. we also have more conservationists and green activists than any state in new england.

i spoke with my local rep the other day and he's happy to introduce a bill for me, but hashing out what to introduce is vitally important. im new, i dont know the ins and outs of politics, i dont know the whos who of wheeling, but i do have several angles to offer, i do have a lot of hours of research at the computer, i do have a fighting spirit and i want to see a change in MA.. for the better this time.

i do most of my posting in the www.toyotacrawlers.com land use section because its a very active board.. you are all welcome to pop in and share your opinions on the many topics we're constantly discussing.

with regard to the snubbing.. we're all adults, why dont we try to remind ourselves how organized the green movement is when they can pass legislation that takes away MILLIONS of acres at a time, never to be touched by humans again. if we dont drop our grievances and organize to oppose these bio-nazis, who will? the ignorant city dwellers of the entire country think wilderness areas are a great idea, so there just might be a wilderness study area coming to a town near you!

with a 10% participation rate, every one of use who loves not just wheeling, but the freedom to enjoy nature.. hell, freedom itself... needs to get together. NEA needs EC4 participation just as badly as EC4 needs NEA participation. it isnt just about our trails, its about stopping eco-fanatics with money who buy politicians, about educating our legislators who dont know or care to research the effects of a bill so that they dont just sign another monumental blow to public land access as a rider for some other bill of interest.


a few excerpts about the people behind the wildlands project:

"In this chapter, Soule advises Wildlands Project supporters to take their time implementing the Plan. Why adopt a politics of patience? “The answer is fear, fear on the part of those folks who believe they will lose their jobs as loggers or miners, have to abandon their way of life as ranchers, professional guides or commercial fishermen, and be forced to move from the region where their families have been living for generations.” (note: ive read many accounts now of these very fears coming true around wilderness areas.)

"Exposing his disdain for humanity, Davis writes, “’Wild Earth’ exists in part to remind conservationists that in the long run all lands and waters should be left to the whims of Nature, not to the selfish desires of one species which chose for itself the misnomer ‘Homo sapiens’, humanizing of landscapes must stop now and be reversed.”

Summarizing his thoughts on the Plan, Davis concludes, “[d]oes all the foregoing mean that Wild Earth and The Wildlands Project advocate the end of industrial civilization? Most assuredly.”

taken from:
http://www.4x4wire.com/access/education ... wp_pt4.htm


these same type of people work for the Nature Conservancy, and the federal government uses Nature Conservancy studies directly for land policy, that our politicians just might find themselves voting on soon. thats like paying hitler to perform a government survey on the effects of jews in america, and then believing it!

i urge everyone to come together and weigh this situation as something much, much more significant than just trails. someday, it could be an entire sector of local economy at stake.
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Postby mike_belben » Wed Nov 07, 2007 3:34 am

think im kidding? hows this for close to home?
http://www.nature.org/wherewework/north ... 21500.html

161,000 acres, 90 mountains, 250 miles of river, GONE.

"These camps have a long tradition here and we will respect and honor them,” says Mike Carr. “We know hunting and fishing are important aspects of the Adirondack’s economy, and we have renewed the recreational leases enjoyed by 3,500 individuals for the next 12 months.”

how generous of them. some of those leases have been in place for 60 years.

this one might make you sick..
http://www.citizenreviewonline.org/augu ... omatic.htm
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Postby JayZR2 » Wed Nov 07, 2007 6:35 am

IMO this isn't the meeting to have with the politicians. This is the meeting to get EC4 and the NEA on the same page. Maybe hash out a plan to coordinate some kind of schedule for the "public" wheeling areas around here. Once there is a united front between the 2, then get the politicians involved. As far as I know this is the first meeting of the 2 since at least 05. I'd like to have our houses in order before we invite in the politicians. JMOT
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Postby mike_belben » Wed Nov 07, 2007 7:19 am

as would i.. im just fearful that the next meeting wont be until 09, in keeping with apparent tradition.

im also trying to illustrate that there is much more at stake than egos. it seemed like staying on the topic of progress, rather than reverting to finger pointing and crossed forearms would be easier if there was a higher matter to contend with at this meeting. while we may butt heads when looking at our small, interclub details, we would all clearly be united when faced with matters like those that i posted.
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Postby Scott Hatch » Wed Nov 07, 2007 7:37 am

baby steps Mike, I know you're full of piss and vinegar and want something done NOW but any legislation is not going to happen overnight.

Perhaps we can attempt to get Mark Dupont's legislation re-introduced....this was to abolish the 1000pd rule. This could be followed up with a 4x4 sticker program, essentially copy the law(s) used for ATVs and modify to fit our needs.
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Postby nuthinfancy » Wed Nov 07, 2007 8:03 am

Maybe a bit off topic but- should we have a long range planning group- or even section of forum- to try to look into the future and try to find workable solutions. IE: how will dwindling water resources effect our polution spewing rigs? When this huge influx of immigrants start needing homes, how will it have an impact on the public & private lands we are currently fighting for? Should we be trying to make alliances with other so called "nature" groups- hunters, fisherman etc. Our club has made an alliance with the Cape Cod Stranding Network who has just become part of IFAW. Whats the viability of privatising a state forest? purchasing land?

I hate to be a bummer but after the past month it seems like we are shovelling it against the tide and as those of us on the Cape know- the tide will eventually win.
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Postby tammylynn » Wed Nov 07, 2007 9:41 am

I think that would fall under our Strategic Planning section? We really should continue with that. That was one of the most productive meetings we ever had but then it kind of dribbled down. I know...

I understand the reasons for not wanting to open this meeting to the poli's but part of me also thinks it might be good to have an outside voice at the meeting to help us stay on the path we should be on. What better way to know exactly what battle we should be focusing our efforts on.

I think we really need to start pulling our resources together and start actively seeking a lobbyist...at least for MA. Maybe this could be a topic for discussion at the meeting.
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Postby Scott Hatch » Wed Nov 07, 2007 9:46 am

NETRA spends about 70k a year for a lobbyist in MA
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Postby tammylynn » Wed Nov 07, 2007 9:50 am

I know....it is going to cost $$ but I think we have to start planning for it. Set aside $ specifically to go towards building for a lobbyist. If we can join with East Coast and maybe some of the other associations we could get even closer to reaching this goal.
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Postby markdupont » Wed Nov 07, 2007 10:04 am

You want to know why Paul? Here's why:

Publicly accessible trails CLOSED in the last few years:
- Beacon
- Nam
- Abbott Mtn
- Driveshaft Hill
- Coy Hill
- Gutter & Ma Bell next?
These are only ones I know about in my short time



Roger could you explain what you mean by “publicly accessible trails CLOSED”? With exception to the town road at Coy Hill, I’ve always understood the rest of your list is private property???? Where are you going with this????
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Postby nuthinfancy » Wed Nov 07, 2007 10:10 am

tammylynn wrote:I think that would fall under our Strategic Planning section? We really should continue with that. That was one of the most productive meetings we ever had but then it kind of dribbled down. I know...

.

Maybe we could restart it by taking the "2005" out of the heading? semantics
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Postby Paul » Wed Nov 07, 2007 10:17 am

:shock:
sheesh.

I'm glad I'm not invited to this meeting.

:lol:
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Postby mike_belben » Wed Nov 07, 2007 10:19 am

obviously im with tammy on this.. :oops:


Scott Hatch wrote:NETRA spends about 70k a year for a lobbyist in MA


off topic, but i read all of the minutes from all of the MA DCR workgroup for OHV use last night, and i didnt get the impression the person there for NETRA was fighting for ATV rights at all, hardly a mention of complaint on their behalf. seemed like they went right along with the same old "increased enforcement, education, safety, etc" rhetoric.

i wonder if their money is being well spent?
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Postby Scott Hatch » Wed Nov 07, 2007 10:25 am

The lobbyist doesn't go to DCR he spends his time on Beacon Hill pushing legislation with state legislators for NETRA
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Postby mike_belben » Wed Nov 07, 2007 10:41 am

do you know the lobbyist's name by any chance?
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Postby Scott Hatch » Wed Nov 07, 2007 10:43 am

No, I would need to contact NETRA but I don't think he would be available as it may be a conflict of interest.
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Postby mike_belben » Wed Nov 07, 2007 10:48 am

i should have clarified. im searching the MA legislature for bills submitted on behalf of netra and havent found any. maybe they are introduced by name only, i dont know.

if i could find pro-ATV bills it would be a lead to pro-ORV legislators. i printed the entire list of every senator and representative in the state and am going to have to go through one by one to find out where we stand with each.
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Postby Treasurer » Wed Nov 07, 2007 10:57 am

I have met their lobbyist. He dresses nice and talks right. This lobbyist should be working for all OHRV user groups. The Eco-Nazis go after all motorized user groups. They do not discriminate when it come to closing down land. You can meet with EC but that will not get you anywhere with the Commuistwealth. I am not going to harp on suing the state for ADA access to public lands. There needs to be a OHRV land trust that is a 501(c)3. This would have all motorized user groups on the BOD. This would allow manufacturers to donate money to keep land open and get land to ride on in the Northeast. The political arm of this would be a RIOHVA in MA. This non-profit would represent all motorized user groups at Beacon Hill. This organization would have the lobbyist.
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Postby adk_tj » Wed Nov 07, 2007 11:06 am

Scott,

PM'd ya.

We'll only have a few hours for our first meeting, but perhaps a weekend summit would be a good future goal, with all the club reps involved. :wink:
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Postby nuthinfancy » Wed Nov 07, 2007 11:19 am

Treasurer wrote:I have met their lobbyist. He dresses nice and talks right. This lobbyist should be working for all OHRV user groups. The Eco-Nazis go after all motorized user groups. They do not discriminate when it come to closing down land. You can meet with EC but that will not get you anywhere with the Commuistwealth. I am not going to harp on suing the state for ADA access to public lands. There needs to be a OHRV land trust that is a 501(c)3. This would have all motorized user groups on the BOD. This would allow manufacturers to donate money to keep land open and get land to ride on in the Northeast. The political arm of this would be a RIOHVA in MA. This non-profit would represent all motorized user groups at Beacon Hill. This organization would have the lobbyist.

Is this an area that UFWDA could be of more help? Realistically I'm going to pay more attention to a builder that wants to give me a million $ a year than a client that is going to give me a 15k job this year.
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Postby tammylynn » Wed Nov 07, 2007 4:06 pm

mike_belben wrote:obviously im with tammy on this.. :oops:


Scott Hatch wrote:NETRA spends about 70k a year for a lobbyist in MA


off topic, but i read all of the minutes from all of the MA DCR workgroup for OHV use last night, and i didnt get the impression the person there for NETRA was fighting for ATV rights at all, hardly a mention of complaint on their behalf. seemed like they went right along with the same old "increased enforcement, education, safety, etc" rhetoric.

i wonder if their money is being well spent?


Hey-why be ashamed to agree with me? :lol: J/K
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Postby Scott Hatch » Wed Nov 07, 2007 4:14 pm

BTW I don't think NETRA is geared towards ATVs but only trail bikes...but I could be wrong :oops:
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Postby rblank » Wed Nov 07, 2007 4:24 pm

Scott Hatch wrote:BTW I don't think NETRA is geared towards ATVs but only trail bikes...but I could be wrong :oops:


correct, New England Trail Riders Association (NETRA) is two-wheel only. No ATV's

Hmmmmm 2500 individual members at $25 a pop would cover the NEA's own personal atty/ lobbiest at $50/yr salary.
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Postby tammylynn » Wed Nov 07, 2007 4:41 pm

rblank wrote:
Scott Hatch wrote:BTW I don't think NETRA is geared towards ATVs but only trail bikes...but I could be wrong :oops:


correct, New England Trail Riders Association (NETRA) is two-wheel only. No ATV's

Hmmmmm 2500 individual members at $25 a pop would cover the NEA's own personal atty/ lobbiest at $50/yr salary.


:idea: Bingo.
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Postby Paul » Wed Nov 07, 2007 4:43 pm

I've been reading this afternoon how the NEATV'ers got the EPO's and Gary Briere right their on their message board, and their still getting stabbed and getting it tucked up their tushies. It's so much about personal agenda's I don't care to go down that road. :paul:
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Postby mike_belben » Thu Nov 08, 2007 2:19 am

if nothing else, id feel some solace in just knowing we gave a jerk like that a few weeks of heartburn dragging his name through the mud in the papers.

in my opinion, we've been too easy of an adversary for the conservation groups who obviously steamroll us on every front. divisions between our recreational preference or association affiliation are making it even easier for them.

todays paper announced 3 massachusetts towns (northampton-72 acres, amherst-28 acres, belchertown-57 acres) just got 1.2 million dollars more conservation land. and im tired of paying for it personally.
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Postby markdupont » Thu Nov 08, 2007 1:18 pm

mike_belben wrote:if nothing else, id feel some solace in just knowing we gave a jerk like that a few weeks of heartburn dragging his name through the mud in the papers.

in my opinion, we've been too easy of an adversary for the conservation groups who obviously steamroll us on every front. divisions between our recreational preference or association affiliation are making it even easier for them.

todays paper announced 3 massachusetts towns (northampton-72 acres, amherst-28 acres, belchertown-57 acres) just got 1.2 million dollars more conservation land. and im tired of paying for it personally.


That won't get anyone anywhere, instead of walking through him, walk around him...

Not even close Mike, the 4-WD community has never even been in the game... members of the 4-WD community have mounted small attempts to capture the ear of the political community, but no one has ever really put together an initiative on the scale of what other user-groups have done...

You can't get angry at this crap, it's a business deal between a private land owner and a (regardless of who it may be) buyer... it's beyond your and my control... another thing to consider is, we don't live in the economies of scale these cats live in.

IMO what we as global village leaders need to do is learn how to teach our community (renegades, clubs & associations) how to co-exist... then learn how to contribute to a common cause and work under one banner.
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Postby Paul » Thu Nov 08, 2007 1:31 pm

oohh you two gotta meet, that's gonna be great.

who want's to be a fly on the wall?
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Postby markdupont » Thu Nov 08, 2007 1:39 pm

Paul wrote:oohh you two gotta meet, that's gonna be great.

i want to be a fly on the wall!
:P :P :P


i'll bring the bug spray.
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Postby sidriptide » Thu Nov 08, 2007 5:37 pm

i cant keep up with all this new discussion and still be productive at work.. guess i need to quite the job. need to catch up on the topics at hand tonight. i like where its going so far.
is it just me or is it painfully obvious that Mike B has spent alot of time reading Brill-isms recently. :lol:
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Postby Paul » Thu Nov 08, 2007 5:40 pm

sidriptide wrote:i cant keep up with all this new discussion and still be productive at work.. guess i need to quite the job. need to catch up on the topics at hand tonight. i like where its going so far.
is it just me or is it painfully obvious that Mike B has spent alot of time reading Brill-isms recently. :lol:


What's that Ah'nold movie set in the future where that angry little leader dude is hidden inside the guys belly? Yea, the guy inside coming out is Belben, the guy on the outside is Brill. :lol:
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Postby Zaedock » Thu Nov 08, 2007 5:52 pm

Quato.

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Postby ToxicTurtle » Thu Nov 08, 2007 7:45 pm

:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Postby mike_belben » Fri Nov 09, 2007 2:49 am

bah.. wheres the middle finger smiley?

Zaedock wrote:Quato.

Image

i do have a shaved head..

but im driven by anger far too much to be compared to dave B!
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Postby mike_belben » Fri Nov 09, 2007 2:54 am

markdupont wrote:
You can't get angry at this crap, it's a business deal between a private land owner and a (regardless of who it may be) buyer... it's beyond your and my control... another thing to consider is, we don't live in the economies of scale these cats live in.



what bothers me about the reckless conservationism in massachusetts is how every new piece of property to get bought up by DCR represents less land available in an already tiny state. they tout it as something that will benefit every resident, but at $80,000 per building lot it sure isnt helping anyone trying to get started here. notice they dont build starter homes in MA anymore? just McMansions. ive got a great job and even with housing prices and interest rates being very low, my price range limits me to springfield. ive got 36 level 3 sex offenders within a few miles of the house i just bought, and thats a good neighborhood. DCR being the buyer of an excessive amount of land, in my opinion, does affect me, and i am angry about it.
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Postby mike_belben » Fri Nov 09, 2007 3:04 am

markdupont wrote:Not even close Mike, the 4-WD community has never even been in the game... members of the 4-WD community have mounted small attempts to capture the ear of the political community, but no one has ever really put together an initiative on the scale of what other user-groups have done... .


so getting back to business. where do we start? how did other groups create their successes? how did the sled folks get tied in so well?
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Postby ToxicTurtle » Fri Nov 09, 2007 8:23 am

mike_belben wrote:
markdupont wrote:Not even close Mike, the 4-WD community has never even been in the game... members of the 4-WD community have mounted small attempts to capture the ear of the political community, but no one has ever really put together an initiative on the scale of what other user-groups have done... .


so getting back to business. where do we start? how did other groups create their successes? how did the sled folks get tied in so well?


You do what are doing in CT.
First off, you get in touch with some local ATVers.. Ones who only ride legally in the MA state forests. Then, you get in touch with NOHVCC (yes, I will put you in touch with the right folks for this). Then, you get in touch with NETRA. You arrange for them to come out and direct all the MA motorized people towards a MA multiple trail users org.. Such as CT/COALT or RIOHVA.
Once you get everyone working under one unified umbrella, you can start taking steps to present legislation that will help all users. Some legislation may only affect OHM riders, while others may only affect full sized 4x4s,but, working together is the key element. So far in CT, we have been able to take the knowledge from the NETRA guys, the sheer numbers of the ATVs and the strong organizational/rallying skills of the full sized groups and be in a position to have a lobbyist, be presenting bills for the legal process and a proposal for an Urban OHV park.
RIOHVA is in the same boat.

PM me and I'll get that info to you.

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Postby markdupont » Fri Nov 09, 2007 10:13 am

ToxicTurtle wrote:
mike_belben wrote:
markdupont wrote:Not even close Mike, the 4-WD community has never even been in the game... members of the 4-WD community have mounted small attempts to capture the ear of the political community, but no one has ever really put together an initiative on the scale of what other user-groups have done... .


so getting back to business. where do we start? how did other groups create their successes? how did the sled folks get tied in so well?


You do what are doing in CT.
First off, you get in touch with some local ATVers.. Ones who only ride legally in the MA state forests. Then, you get in touch with NOHVCC (yes, I will put you in touch with the right folks for this). Then, you get in touch with NETRA. You arrange for them to come out and direct all the MA motorized people towards a MA multiple trail users org.. Such as CT/COALT or RIOHVA.
Once you get everyone working under one unified umbrella, you can start taking steps to present legislation that will help all users. Some legislation may only affect OHM riders, while others may only affect full sized 4x4s,but, working together is the key element. So far in CT, we have been able to take the knowledge from the NETRA guys, the sheer numbers of the ATVs and the strong organizational/rallying skills of the full sized groups and be in a position to have a lobbyist, be presenting bills for the legal process and a proposal for an Urban OHV park.
RIOHVA is in the same boat.

PM me and I'll get that info to you.
Talk soon, Dave



Dave, you're putting the cart before the horse it needs to get more basic then that. Ground zero if you will. The 4WD community needs to band together. ALL associations, clubs, users need to find and commit to a common ground in order to work together (business 101, create a business plan... a map), leave the ego at home. We need to assemble a talent-pool. You already know we’re up against people who practice real estate law every day, state government employees who are paid to talk the talk every day, conservation groups who visit both these food groups every day… standing in front of these well educated and experienced people answering their questions with “I don’t know, I’ll have to get back to you” won’t work.

The 4WD community (again, all working groups including RIHOVA & CT/COLT, NEA & EC, clubs & individuals) needs to get its sh!t together and organize itself before we get involved with soliciting other user groups for help. You, Scott and myself sat in a meeting last week with some very knowledgeable and motivated people, if nothing else I did walk away learning that they have their poop wired, organized and have a plan and consistent message. What impressed me the most, I heard one voice and saw no egos.
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Postby Paul » Fri Nov 09, 2007 10:33 am

One further, and this is where Mr. Dupont and I respectfully disagree:

The Massachusetts model for a multi-use trail system does not work. We see MX'rs and quads being set up for failure. If you want to push the state for our own 4x4 trail network, you're going to have to spec out new trails specifically for 4x4 use.

I've been on sled trails, I've been on quad trails, on mx trails in the state forests, all of us using the same trail is NOT going to work. Although we are all motorized we seek (at least in my eyes) dramatically different terrain.

To boot you're not going to get it by saying "give it to me because I pay taxes, I'm entitled" You're going to have to just short of seize that gas tax money, that RTP money, and create yourself a pilot system on a network of trails that you and your buddies built.

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Postby rblank » Fri Nov 09, 2007 10:38 am

the Sweatervest man speaketh the truth.

It's one of the hardest concepts I've had to deal with on the RI Trails Advisory Committee. Non-motorized users can't understand the different types of terrains and lengths of trails that the individual trail users need. They think it's like a road, all motorized vehicles use roads, why are trails any different?
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Postby Paul » Fri Nov 09, 2007 10:42 am

Scott asked "what's gotten into you lately being so protective"

I did a recon at a place....pristine trails, perfect for sleds, and some nice quad trails too. Miles of them. I could not stop thinking the whole time what packs of Jeeps would do in there besides wreck the entire place. I had the vision in my head clear as day. Yes, we found some great old skidder paths that are perfect, but I fear for the rest of the trails and what will happen. Trail Management plans have to be set in place before-hand, well before it gets "Coy-Hilled".
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Postby rblank » Fri Nov 09, 2007 10:58 am

I don't know what the NEA might have already, but we should get our hands on the NOHVCC and highly anticipated State of MN trail maintance guides.
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Postby Scott Hatch » Fri Nov 09, 2007 11:08 am

rblank wrote:I don't know what the NEA might have already, but we should get our hands on the NOHVCC and highly anticipated State of MN trail maintance guides.


I've got a few things posted about this on the main NEA site

http://www.nea4wd.org/articles/index.cf ... CLE_ID=176

What I've used is my own personal experience working with the AMC and information from various web pages and manuals, some of which are listed above
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Postby markdupont » Fri Nov 09, 2007 11:14 am

Paul wrote:One further, and this is where Mr. Dupont and I respectfully disagree:

The Massachusetts model for a multi-use trail system does not work. We see MX'rs and quads being set up for failure. If you want to push the state for our own 4x4 trail network, you're going to have to spec out new trails specifically for 4x4 use.

I've been on sled trails, I've been on quad trails, on mx trails in the state forests, all of us using the same trail is NOT going to work. Although we are all motorized we seek (at least in my eyes) dramatically different terrain.

To boot you're not going to get it by saying "give it to me because I pay taxes, I'm entitled" You're going to have to just short of seize that gas tax money, that RTP money, and create yourself a pilot system on a network of trails that you and your buddies built.

.02
:paul:


Paul, I never mentioned "multi-use"... I’m merely trying to put things into perspective in that, we ain’t going to go anywhere without learning how to work with each other first… you putting words in my mouth won’t get you on my Christmas card list m’kay? :wink:
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Postby Paul » Fri Nov 09, 2007 11:16 am

Cheerios with a splash of urine this morning Mr. Dupont??
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Postby rblank » Fri Nov 09, 2007 11:29 am

Scott Hatch wrote:
rblank wrote:I don't know what the NEA might have already, but we should get our hands on the NOHVCC and highly anticipated State of MN trail maintance guides.


I've got a few things posted about this on the main NEA site

http://www.nea4wd.org/articles/index.cf ... CLE_ID=176

What I've used is my own personal experience working with the AMC and information from various web pages and manuals, some of which are listed above


These are the ones I was refering to:

http://nohvcc.org/education/tools.asp

awesome bits of info here. I have to ask, but RIOHVA might have the NOHVCC OHV Park one.
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Postby markdupont » Fri Nov 09, 2007 11:32 am

Paul wrote:Cheerios with a splash of urine this morning Mr. Dupont??


naw, just giving you a hard time...
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