how to protect our private land from renegades?

[jenmarrs]

It has become clear to me that our Springfield property is being damaged by renegade wheelers tearing up the clearing on the land, which is accessed easily from the road. This is trespassing, damages the property, and annoys the neighbors.
Is there a way we can get the local police to monitor this property at night or something?
A wildlife camera might also give us something to bring to the police...

just wondering what we have done in the past or if anyone has any ideas.

The clearing is quite large and has a lot of open frontage to the road, so fencing is not an affordable option at all.
Personally I am not willing to go up there and confront any drunken night wheelers either

any ideas welcome.

[d.yoda]

The camera is probably the best idea. Maybe the association should own one that could be used on any site where there are issues.

[Pat C]

I agree with Jenn. I noticed this when I was up there last month. I was planning on bringing up the situation at the NEA meeting tomorrow so that some options could be discussed.

[jenmarrs]

sounds good.


I finally saw your post about your last trip up there and it just re-enforced my feeling that we need to do something with that property to quiet it down

[Paul]

woa.
Not good.
4x4's or ATV's?

Signs high up.

Snow fence is cheap, but easily knocked down.

I wonder if it is possbile for us to get "permission" to prosecute?
Subrogation I believe the term is, "standing in the shoes" of the owner?
Dunno the legal term, Robin prolly does.

[Paul]

eh, I guess that relates to insurance law and contracts for a sum of money. Don't know if you can transfer your legal right to sue.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subrogation

[jenmarrs]

these are 4x4 trucks in this case.
I would need to talk to the landowner and have him make a call to the police to get the ball rolling I imagine.
I wanted to approach him with a proposal....which is what we need to discuss

[Scott Hatch]

Steve has had the most personal contact with the landowner, I'm sure he'll be on at sometime today after he wakes up.

There are a couple of options.....

We could post signs but I honestly don't think that is going to work

I think we could move large boulders across this area making a wall....we could also sink steel posts every 6 feet anchored in cement

[Treasurer]

I do not know if the landwowner will prosecute. I bet we can get him to prosecute. I like the camera idea. If this camera will get us license plate numbers then I am all for it. A day time safety patrol could help. I would only watch the land at night with my hand gun, cell phone and the local police on notice. Since I have permission to be there I would not confront the renegades, but rather befriend them. Then I would call the local police and have them waiting for them to bust them for DUI and tresspassing.

[Ryan]

I dont know if they have changed but....... the "deer cams" I have are older and they flash at night. now a deer will just scurry away as a renagade will investigate the flash. IMO what we need to do is somehow make it difficult for them to access the property (i like scotts idea of the concrete barrier posts) I know its far fetched but we could also put a pamphlet box up in this location to try to educate some peeps. ( I do understand that they may just become litter but its worth a shot, Maybe they have never heard of us and may become interested once they know)

[Mikey]

eye bolts and cable don't cost that much.

[Treasurer]

I would love to be out there, armed with a concealed gun and a cell phone. What we need to do is observe them from a distance and notify the police when they leave to get them the DUIs they deserve.

[Scott SKEETER Brown]

I would love to be out there, armed with a concealed gun and a cell phone. What we need to do is observe them from a distance and notify the police when they leave to get them the DUIs they deserve.

I think the gun is a little radical-if you anticipate that kind of issues, you shouldn't be there in the 1st place without police.

[Scott Hatch]

I was thinking of this on my ride home and what if we just dumped some fill in the mud hole? If we eliminate the mud, we eliminate the renegades.....

[JayZR2]

I know a couple guys with pick ups who might be able to haul it in. They could probably be bribed with another tour of those class VI roads. We enjoyed those.

[Scott Hatch]

I was thinking of a about 50,000 lbs of fill to fix the road and fill those mudpits.....not that I would turn their help away

I think this may be the easiest & cheapest way to stop this problem & make a good parking area for trailers

2 birds=1 stone

[JayZR2]

That would only take about a 1000 trips in the Z's.

[Scott Hatch]

I really want to get there and do some work before next year

JEN got any free weekends? I think if I can get Nate, Nelson, and Bill on board they would love to make some trails.

I would also like to see this property open for club use before the fall of 2007....

[Treasurer]

I would love to be out there, armed with a concealed gun and a cell phone. What we need to do is observe them from a distance and notify the police when they leave to get them the DUIs they deserve.

I think the gun is a little radical-if you anticipate that kind of issues, you shouldn't be there in the 1st place without police.

I want to see them caught real bad. That is the only way they will change their behavior. Making the mud a parking area will just make them drive on different parts of the property. Let me send a message to Kned and see if he will go to court. NH Fish and Game would like to catch them, but only of the landwoner will go to court.

[jenmarrs]

I anticipate living in Boston during the week over the next couple of months, but I could probably swing one weekend day here and there

I think we need these kids caught - I am going to talk to the landowner about it and do some research.

As for filling the mud, the issue won't go away. its a nice idea for other reasons but even this summer when it was bone dry those guys were up there tearing it up. beer cans, illegal campfires, donuts in the dry dirt, etc. once they discover the trails we are cutting it is likely to get even stickier.

I will let you know what the landowner thinks after I talk to him tomorrow afternoon.

Ideally we can convince the police to stake it out and catch the guys. it is likely that these are local kids who just need a talking-to once and they will move on to greener pastures. it is likely that they think no one cares.

[wally]

sorry to rain on your idea, jen, but there is no way that springfield is going to send any police to view the property. for one, it is a long way for them to get to it, as they have to either go through wilmot or grafton to reach it. two, they aren't going to see the value in sending an officer up there on any old night on the off chance that someone might be illegally wheeling.

i doubt they'd even "monitor" the location. for them, a waste of their time.

wildlife camera seems like a better idea, especially one that doesn't use a flash. not sure how feasible it would be, other than it is more likely to occur than police presence.

only chance for the police to go would be to catch the renegades in the act, and call. that seems like a risky position.

calm down, steve n. you're more likely to get yourself hurt by taking the action you purport. highly likely that the renegades have weapons, too. rifles for deer season, handguns because they can. on this issue i agree with skeeter.

wally

[Treasurer]

Would the license plate picture be enough for a court case?

[wally]

the photo would be a place to start. that could be shown to f&g/local police, as far as vehicle that belongs with the plate. would allow them to follow up or have a "chat" with the offender.

court case is down the road a ways, no matter what course of action is decided on. the odds just aren't in "our" favor to catch the renegades in the act by witnessing the event.

on the other hand, if you shoot a few of them, or threaten to, the odds are very good that we'll read about your court date.

wally

[Pat C]

I really want to get there and do some work before next year

JEN got any free weekends? I think if I can get Nate, Nelson, and Bill on board they would love to make some trails.

Scott,
I still need to get up to the property soon to get my rock guard, so I would be up to going out again, before the snow flies hopefully.
Have you decided on a date yet?
Either that or if you don't mind, I can tell you where about the piece is and you can pick it up for me. That would be great if you pick a date I am unable to attend.
One hindurance to this year's trail making efforts is how wet the land was due to the amount of rain we've had. Last year was a much dryer season, so mud was not such an issue as now.
I feel that a couple of 4WD ATVs would be a big help in scouting and marking the property for trails, that way when workers go in to cut, they know where to be putting their efforts.
As far as dumping fill at the landing ... what type of fill? Don't mean to be dumb, but adding more dirt only makes more mud ... were you thinking of gravel or small stones?

[jenmarrs]

I have an ATV I can bring next time.

[wally]

I still need to get up to the property soon to get my rock guard, so I would be up to going out again, before the snow flies hopefully.

Either that or if you don't mind, I can tell you where about the piece is and you can pick it up for me. That would be great if you pick a date I am unable to attend.

pat,

i live about 10 minutes away from moose mountain. if you want to let me know where the part is, i can pick it up and store it at my house/garage. that way, anyone coming to this area can stop by to pick it up for you, and it won't get buried under snow.

tim

[Scott Hatch]

Pat I am sorry but I have no plans on going there anytime soon

[jenmarrs]

Pat, you have my number


BTW, I looked into no-flash game cameras the other day and they're f'in expensive!

we can try something simple perhaps like putting up a snow fence & signs - maybe they'll take it down, but maybe they'll get the message that someone is involved & cares about the property. I know when I was in their shoes in my youth, once I saw signs of life I would find somewhere else to hang out.

if they tear it down we haven't lost much, and then we will move on to stronger tactics.

[Paul]

like how expensive?

[Paul]

wally world has a couple in the hundy range.

http://www.walmart.com/search/browse-ng ... NavId=4155

[jenmarrs]

the no-flash type is in the $400 - $600 range.

[Paul]

oh.

[mrfreakinwhite]

Pat, you have my number


BTW, I looked into no-flash game cameras the other day and they're f'in expensive!

we can try something simple perhaps like putting up a snow fence & signs - maybe they'll take it down, but maybe they'll get the message that someone is involved & cares about the property. I know when I was in their shoes in my youth, once I saw signs of life I would find somewhere else to hang out.

if they tear it down we haven't lost much, and then we will move on to stronger tactics.

x2
Might work at Gutter?

[Paul]

Agreed.

I'll get some signs and some fence.

I'm working with Carl on a meeting with the forester.

I got an answer from Carl that was like the guy in the verizon network commercial. "How about it!"

[Treasurer]

Here I go with another Idea that I do not have the time or equipment to do. We could to film a public service message to be run on the local cable channels. There would be a slight variation for each state, because the laws are different. It would show us getting permission from a landowner. Then using the land properly with, maintainance, staying on the trails, building bridges, waterbars and anything else we can think of. The would be focused toward renengades and landowners. Hey a landowner can see the video and want to contact the NEA4WDC for help with a renegade issue.

I think we should get a non-flash wildlife camera, set it up and see what pictures of renengades we get. We educate them first with a letter from the license plates we get. If they ignore the letter and still go out there then we prosecute them.

[Paul]

I still owe the assoc a $100.

[Treasurer]

Pay up you deadbeat. LOL We need a camera.

[rblank]

You could probably get some college kids to film it for you towards a school project. CT School of Broadcasting and places like that.

[Paul]

Hey Roger, go home and answer my question will ya?

[Mymopar]

I was thinking about this dilema and taking an idea posted here already modified it a bit.

Materials needed would be concrete, rebar and molds.

Like mentioned before, dig holes about 5-6' apart and build cement "posts" along the open area. Add a piece of rebar or 2 for structural support and keep going.
The rebar would help prevent the post from cracking and falling apart, plus if a renegade tried to run it over or take it out with a bumper, he'd have a surprise waiting for him.
I'm uncertain of the cost of all this, but it would be cheaper than buying steel and sinking them into the ground secured with concrete.

This is just another idea to use now or maybe in the future. It'd be nice if all the holes could be dug and fitted with forms and have a concrete truck come by and fill each one, but that'd be too easy (and expensive).

[Wagz]

I was thinking about this dilema and taking an idea posted here already modified it a bit.

Materials needed would be concrete, rebar and molds.

Like mentioned before, dig holes about 5-6' apart and build cement "posts" along the open area. Add a piece of rebar or 2 for structural support and keep going.
The rebar would help prevent the post from cracking and falling apart, plus if a renegade tried to run it over or take it out with a bumper, he'd have a surprise waiting for him.
I'm uncertain of the cost of all this, but it would be cheaper than buying steel and sinking them into the ground secured with concrete.

This is just another idea to use now or maybe in the future. It'd be nice if all the holes could be dug and fitted with forms and have a concrete truck come by and fill each one, but that'd be too easy (and expensive).

I would caution against "permanent" barriers such as the concrete and rebar idea. From a legal liability perspective, if these devices are near the public right of way, they will need to be designed with "break-away" features, in accordance with state and federal specifications. Otherwise, if a motorist runs off the road in bad weather or to avoid a deer, etc. and slams into one of these "barriers" you've built... guess who's getting sued? And just pray no one gets killed.

I would stick to snow fence and signs saying tresspassers will be prosecuted. If you're going to install a wildlife cam, be prepared mentally for it to grow legs. There's a host of people in the world, and not all are morally upright.

[rblank]

How can a person on a Class VI road "swerve"? you're going too dam slow. And how is it any different than slamming into a tree doing the same thing?

If we hide behind the liability scare, we should never leave our house. If people are trespassing, and slam into a concrete, steel, or wood barrier, it serves them right. Put it well inside the property lines so there is no dispute that they're on the land illegally when they hit it.


Mopar, the only problem I see with your suggestion is all the concrete would have to be mixed by hand. There's probably no way we'd be able to get a concrete truck up there. Oooo brain drizzle.... We could "precast them somewhere close by that a truck could get to and haul them in later after they've set up.

[Wagz]

How can a person on a Class VI road "swerve"? you're going too dam slow. And how is it any different than slamming into a tree doing the same thing?

If we hide behind the liability scare, we should never leave our house. If people are trespassing, and slam into a concrete, steel, or wood barrier, it serves them right. Put it well inside the property lines so there is no dispute that they're on the land illegally when they hit it.

I didn't know you were talking about a Class VI road. But regardless, the difference between a tree and a concrete post is you placed the post there. It may not make a difference, given the road you're talking about, but your argument wouldn't last past the opening statement in a court case. Sorry, that's just reality. As for being on the land illegally, post it for no tresspassing, then you'll have less difficulty explaining it later.

It's not a matter of hiding behind anything, let alone the liability scare. It IS a matter of achieving your goals WHILE protecting your interests. In these situations, you CAN have both, you just have to do it wisely.

If you screw up, and some nitwit gets injured or killed because of some "unathorized" barrier you installed, you'll waste time, effort, MONEY, and ruin the relationship with the landowner.

All I am suggesting is you consider everything prior to jumping to one measure short of Steve's "drop 'em where they stand" approach, and make sure it's approved (in writing) by the landowner.

[jenmarrs]

it may be that some boulders might serve the same purpose, assuming we can find them right there

snow fence first, then big guns.

[Treasurer]

Put up many no-wheeled vehicles signs that were purchased from NH Fish and Game. I have them here in our file cabinet.

[rblank]

So when F & G come by Steve they can bust us for being on the property?

[Scott Hatch]

No because we have written permission

The sign states no wheeled vehicles without written permission

NH Fish and Game also recognize the NEA as "the" 4x4 organization for NH, as such they know and understand that we use these signs to prevent unauthorized access

[Treasurer]

Put the signs up and see how long they last.

[jenmarrs]

will do.
snow fence too....just to provide a psychological barrier.
right now that clearing is basically a pull-off on the road. we need to divide it from the road in people's minds

then they will have to make a decision to trespass, and hopefully they will choose not to.

where can I buy snow fence, will I get reimbursed, and how can I get those signs from you Steve?

[Paul]

Didnt read all this yet but...

Hunting....real dummy question. Not being a hunter. Can you hunt on Sundays?? or is there a blue law?

trail cut/maint on a sunday anyone?